lustyd
Well-known member
I couldn't fit my boat on a plane!
Liveaboard and blue water recommendations
- Thread starter magicol
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capnsensible
Well-known member
You can't anchor a plane off Pinneys Beach, Nevis and go ashore for rum punch 'killer bees'......I couldn't fit my boat on a plane!
lustyd
Well-known member
I think you'll find that depends very much on the plane! Might not be popular turning up like that though...You can't anchor a plane off Pinneys Beach, Nevis and go ashore for rum punch 'killer bees'......
capnsensible
Well-known member
geem
Well-known member
It obviously depends on what you bought in the first place. Yes, if you bought a small boat, you might desire something bigger but lots of people desire a larger boat. They suffer from 5 foot- ituss.
We have no desire to have a larger boat. For us, 44ft is the limit that one person can handle. Sailing two up, means single handed sailing in shifts.
We don't crave a larger cockpit. We can seat 10. That's plenty.
Choosing a boat that wasn't optimised for charter gives the opportunity for a far better internal layout. We don't need 4 cabins but we do want a large galley. Large heads. Large saloon. We do want massive storage. That is the one thing that makes a huge difference when living aboard.
We have a good aft cabin with ensuite.
We have lots of space for our toys. Bikes, wingfoiling gear, kitesurfing gear, dive tanks. We also have a flush deck so we can carry a 3.8m nesting hard dinghy on deck.
A great bonus is a large durable dinghy and 15hp engine when you want to explore reefs for diving or head around to the next bay in the open sea.
We do all this with our 44ft boat and have no craving for bigger.
We never crave a different boat. We have spent many an evening on friends boats, both catamarans and monohulls. We have enjoyed massive voluminous cockpits with no shelter from a sudden downpour or cockpits that our so exposed to the wind as the boat sails around the anchor that sitting there for the evening being buffeted is miserable.
There is no such thing as a perfect boat. They are all compromises, but experience shapes your choices as to what is right for you
geem
Well-known member
Whether you buy a well sorted boat that is suited to an Atlantic circuit or a production boat that isnt, might depend on who you listen to. The idea of these forums is to give advice based on experience. That is what I am doing having done several Atlantic crossings. I also spend lots of time with people who cross the Atlantic like myself. How boats perform, what breaks, what wrong with boat designs, etc, is common topics for discussion.
If a young couple plan to take a 2 or 3 year sabbatical, there is likely to be plenty of sailing involved. Unlike us older farts, youngsters on a sabbatical tend to want to cram in as much as possible, being on a limited timescale. Lots of sailing and probable return trip across the pond are likely. A boat that is angled towards sailing seems like a sensible choice
richardh10
Active member
As they say in the Pacific...... a mono is for sailing, a cat is for living
Tranona
Well-known member
Your first sentence is absolute nonsense - if one listens to you production boats are not suitable - and yet plenty do it in increasing numbers simply because the alternatives are declining in numbers. Plus of course those who buy them believe the advantages they offer outweigh the supposed negatives. If the type of boat you insist is necessary - then why are none made - nor have been for over 20 years? If they really were essential there would be a thriving industry catering for the demand.
That is just your definition of what forums are for - your experience is valuable, but it is not the only view of the world. This forum (and particularly this thread) is dominated by people who have a particular view about what makes a suitable boat even if they are in a global sense a tiny minority. Are the people who make different choices mad or ignorant? They have most likely been through exactly the same process as you (and the others) and have come to a different conclusion then bought a different type of boat. It may be because their priorities are different or they have less money, but for whatever reason it is their decision.
What boat people buy depends on what they think meets their expectations and is available on the market. That in turn depends on where they are buying and what their future plans are. Your second paragraph is just making an argument to suit your preference without any knowledge of who they are or what they think about it other than they are young, taking a sabbatical and have a £100k budget. I could make up an equally convincing argument for buying something like the Bavaria 36 based on my guess as to what their thinking is.
Suggest you have a dip into these two neither of which seem to have any problems using modern off the shelf production boats - indeed one even has the temerity to specify a furling mainsail. Is their experience and choice any less valid than yours?
youtube.com/channel/UCEZSvXwSH6flqA0q_EEDDBQ/videos
mjambo.de
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
.... what a bizzare response. @Tranona is one of the most prolific posters of sound advice on this forum. You also are a mine of good information but in one sentence you have managed to combine an ad-hominen attack, a logical fallacy, (specifically the identity fallacy where an opinion is judged not on it's logic or merit, but on the person making the argument not being part of a given group), and finally an assumption, by the use of the word "we" that you are speaking not on behalf of yourself, but a larger group. In my experience, people who so dogmatically defend their views, and who attack others in the process, have usually made life-choices they regret somewhere along the line, but are then so committed to those choices they feel uncomfortable and get defensive and/or aggressive when challenged. Chill out, this is a sailing forum, why can't we have a neutral, resoned discussion without the name-calling?
It's not that difficult to accept that your choices are made based on different preferences and priorities when compared to the choices of others - and that there is more than one valid answer to the question of what makes a good livaboard yacht for extended cruising. Every boat is a compromise, and the people who really understand that are the yacht manufacturers - at least those who still remain in business. There is a niche market for boats like yours, Hallberg Rassy still make something similar in the HR44, a beautiful boat with an eye-watering price tag. It has a bathing platform, twin rudders, a simple rig instead of a ketch, which makes the aft deck much cleaner, it is not that heavy, it has plenty of port lights and windows and a very light, bright and pleasant interior - even comes with a 3 double cabin layout, a vertically battened roller furling mainsail, and the hull shape is more modern provinding increased interior space. My problem with it is that the outside entertaining space is simply too small for my family - a large aft cockpit with a big table is essential, as well as easy access to the water for SUPs and windsurfers. So even if I had the money, I wouldn't buy one.
Does having a large family and lots of friends who like to come sailing preclude me from the blue-water, liveaboard lifestyle? No, it just means I'd end up with a different boat to you. If I bought a boat like yours, I'd end up with something that bugged me constantly with it's shortcomings, and it would result in my extended family and friends spending less and less time on board. I'd end up a miserable, grumpy old man with a long suffering partner, sitting in paradise with no-one to share it with. Perhaps I'd end up spending my time venting my frustratons on sailing forums ......
... oh, hang-on a minute
steve yates
Well-known member
Never sailed an ocean, bit one thing that has struck me several times on various trips to many carribean islands is…. The surprising lack of ben/bav/jens at al anchored or moored in the bays. I keep hearing there are fleets of them crossing the atlantic, but they do seem to be a minority when you travel thro the carribean. Its a preponderance of olderstyle cruisng yachts and modern cats. ( not talking about charter fleets) that usually see.
geem
Well-known member
Tranoma has lots of good advice on the subject matter he knows about. Giving advice on what boat to choice for long distance sailing is not one of them..... what a bizzare response. @Tranona is one of the most prolific posters of sound advice on this forum. You also are a mine of good information but in one sentence you have managed to combine an ad-hominen attack, a logical fallacy, (specifically the identity fallacy where an opinion is judged not on it's logic or merit, but on the person making the argument not being part of a given group), and finally an assumption, by the use of the word "we" that you are speaking not on behalf of yourself, but a larger group. In my experience, people who so dogmatically defend their views, and who attack others in the process, have usually made life-choices they regret somewhere along the line, but are then so committed to those choices they feel uncomfortable and get defensive and/or aggressive when challenged. Chill out, this is a sailing forum, why can't we have a neutral, resoned discussion without the name-calling?
It's not that difficult to accept that your choices are made based on different preferences and priorities when compared to the choices of others - and that there is more than one valid answer to the question of what makes a good livaboard yacht for extended cruising. Every boat is a compromise, and the people who really understand that are the yacht manufacturers - at least those who still remain in business. There is a niche market for boats like yours, Hallberg Rassy still make something similar in the HR44, a beautiful boat with an eye-watering price tag. It has a bathing platform, twin rudders, a simple rig instead of a ketch, which makes the aft deck much cleaner, it is not that heavy, it has plenty of port lights and windows and a very light, bright and pleasant interior - even comes with a 3 double cabin layout, a vertically battened roller furling mainsail, and the hull shape is more modern provinding increased interior space. My problem with it is that the outside entertaining space is simply too small for my family - a large aft cockpit with a big table is essential, as well as easy access to the water for SUPs and windsurfers. So even if I had the money, I wouldn't buy one.
Does having a large family and lots of friends who like to come sailing preclude me from the blue-water, liveaboard lifestyle? No, it just means I'd end up with a different boat to you. If I bought a boat like yours, I'd end up with something that bugged me constantly with it's shortcomings, and it would result in my extended family and friends spending less and less time on board. I'd end up a miserable, grumpy old man with a long suffering partner, sitting in paradise with no-one to share it with. Perhaps I'd end up spending my time venting my frustratons on sailing forums ......
... oh, hang-on a minute
He has been telling this forum for years that production boats are perfect for long distance sailing. I beg to differ.
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May we remind contributors of the requirement to remain civil, across the forum. Thank you.
Civil Public Discourse - 14/09/2020
May we remind contributors of the requirement to remain civil, across the forum. Thank you.
Civil Public Discourse - 14/09/2020
Graham376
Well-known member
Although our old Moody is quite capable, we haven't done an Atlantic crossing, 3 x Biscay crossing was boring enough for me. However, we're based in an area where lots of boats arrive and depart to/from Atlantic crossings. Without doubt the majority of long distance liveaboards in modern production boats are in a small minority. the majority seem to prefer larger wetted area, longer low aspect keel and mostly skegged rudders.
Tranona
Well-known member
No, I have not. Just because you don't like what I say is no reason to respond in this way.
Just to be clear. All I have ever said is that many (thousands?) of people go ocean cruising in modern production boats which you categorically state are unsuitable. I have given plenty of evidence that this is the case, for example the two links I posted as well documented cases of two individuals who who have done exactly what you say their boats are unsuitable for. There were 139 boats that completed the 2022 ARC. The majority of these (57%) were either catamarans or mass production boats of the type you and others dismiss - spade rudders, wide flat hulls, fin keels and so on. They all manged to both get from (mostly N Europe) to the Canaries and then across the Atlantic and many will either sail back or go on sailing to other places. Please don't dismisss this as not being "proper" ocean cruising or liveaboards. The boats have done what you say they are unsuitable for - crossing oceans under sail.
You cannot ignore the fact that the boats that meet your model of what is suitable are now in a minority in the market and while there are enough around maybe to satisfy the small number who are prepared to take on 30 and 40 year old boats there are many more. The only "advice" I have given is that those looking to buy a boat to go ocean cruising should not limit themselves just to older style boats as modern boats are capable of fulfilling that role, evidenced by the increasing number that are used in this way.
Tranona
Well-known member
Graham, that just is not true - although it maybe representative of a certain subset from a certain timeframe. If you had moved round into the Med proper or gone across the Atlantic you would have seen a different mix. You can't escape the fact that there are insufficient boats of the type you describe to fill all the demand for ocean cruisers, liveaboards, adventurers of however you want to describe the population.
capnsensible
Well-known member
I helped a friend of mine take his Lagoon 40 something from Barcelona to Lanzarote. He then did some adjustments, moved aboard and is now in Tonga......
capnsensible
Well-known member
We've lived aboard in a couple of cruiser pit stops. Gib for a long time and the last 7 years in Lanzarote. The annual migration is just starting and in increasing amounts, catamarans are becoming the most popular choice. All sorts.
You don't have to like them, but stacks of people do!
Same with Bavarias. I've taken a couple across oceans. Very comfortable. It's great...for me....that those who wish to cruise have such a wide choice. Yay.
You don't have to like them, but stacks of people do!
Same with Bavarias. I've taken a couple across oceans. Very comfortable. It's great...for me....that those who wish to cruise have such a wide choice. Yay.
capnsensible
Well-known member
This was anchored off Papagayo Beach this morning. Certainly had arrived from oop North.
doug748
Well-known member
I won't be manning the barricades as Tranona was winding himself up to do the very same thing to me:
"......BTW have you actually sailed a Bavaria long distance? Or even at all?"
"......You have not answered the question - have you actually sailed a Bavaria?"
For the record I am all in favour of everyone having their say. It does not take long to weed out the humbugs and those that pronounce with absolute certainty on a range of topics that don't strike you as being their area of expertise.
.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
Then differ, that is your prerogative, but the fact remains, as @Tranona pointed out, for some people a production boat is what they choose to go long distance cruising on, you might not like it, but it's a fact - and the fact that @Tranona isn't an ocean cruising live-aboard doesn't change that fact.
@doug748 .... yes, I agree @Tranona also used a logical fallacy - what he should have asked is "How did you arrive at your opinion of Bavarias?" ... then any readers would be able to judge if the opinion had merit or not.
It's a bit of a moot point though, for example, my brother is a marine coatings expert working for a very well know global company dealing with everything from pleasure craft to superyachts, but until 2 years ago he didn't own a boat - so it could be similarly argued that his opinion therefore doesn't count.
but moving on ...
I suspect that many liveaboards are 55 and above, and they remember the halcyon days of Marine Projects, Moodys, Westerleys, Contessas etc. ... maybe even lusted after them when they were younger and couldn't afford one - my dad certainly did.
People tend to retain the view of the world that they acquired in their formative years - and this view becomes more and more outdated as the world around them changes.
Manufacturers, like Hallberg Rassy, probably one of the best known manufacturers of blue water boats in Europe, have had to move with the times - they'd go bust if they didn't - HRs now have drop down swim platforms, twin rudders, wider beams, plumb bows, roller furling mains, and many more concessions to modern design - like weight reduction - which is what the buyers want. The HR 400, God forbid, is a gorgeous up-market AWB with an aft cockpit - it weighs 11 metric tonnes with a hull length of 12.3m, the Bavaria C42 has a hull length of 11.99m and weighs 10 metric tonnes. ... the extra weight in the HR is in the keel, not the hull. The Bavaria is 12cm wider. The HR has 6 square meters more sail.
But what about underwater .... the modern HR44 .... short fin keel, less volume under water, shaft drive, twin (large) rudders.
A Sun Odyssey 440 .... short fin keel, less volume under water, shaft drive, twin (small) rudders.
HR has come a long way since the 42E ... if HR were still pushing the 42E they would no longer exist.
So why are the bottom and top pictures acceptable ocean cruisers, but the one in the middle isn't. Centre cockpit? Is that it?
We've had people on this forum try and argue that if your boat isn't steel, it's unsuitable for crossing oceans, and we have a faction that think if your boat doesn't weigh 22 tonnes and have a motion like a waterlogged tree-trunk, then it is unsuitable for crossing oceans. The generation before that swore by wooden boats for long-distance voyaging as "the material was available all over the world and you could always get them repaired", Suhaili won the first Golden Globe race, but I certainly wouldn't recommend that over a modern production cruiser .... would anyone?
Maybe foils will be the next big thing, or electric propulsion, at which point there will be an army of naysayers condemning them as unsuitable for ocean passages, even though that is exactly where they are currently being deployed.
Technology moves on, most of our advanced designs are only made possible by material improvements, manufacturing improvements, as well as more accumulated experience, and more accurate, more complex engineering calculations. This enables designers to change designs to be lighter, more efficient and simply better than what went before - sure, you get the occasional mistake, but that is human nature - generally everything we have today functions better than it did in the 1980s - and boats are not some magic exception.