JPK 39FC

[doris]

My experience with furlers, which is probably a bit dated as I haven't actually sailed with one made after 2004, was that the halyard tension required for best windward performance in a decent breeze - i.e the most wind you had full sail out for - and the halyard tension required for an easy furl, were mutually exclusive.

And also, that even the best clutches struggle to hold the halyard tension you actually want in your foresail for upwind progress in a bit of breeze. There's a reason we leave the halyard on the winch upwind, and that's despite the fact that we have an extra cover stitched into the halyard at the point it goes through the clutch.
So easing the halyard slightly before furling just became SOP on dad's Dufour. Apart from anything else I didn't think it would do the sail a lot of good to have full halyard tension on it all the time.

For general cruising work, there's no right or wrong answer to where you want the halyard I think. I would absolutely favour bringing it back, but that's mostly because all my practiced techniques use that and I'm very familiar with it. And honestly I can't see a huge disadvantage, with the advantage that you can easily adjust under way. Having a split halyard, as Chiara does is a neat way of reducing the bulk of line in the cockpit whilst still giving you the ability to get the tail on the winch.

I have been pondering this post. I absolutely agree in that I have yet to find a clutch that will hold the job halyard tension when going uphill with full sail and 20 something knots over the deck, so yes it does remain on the winch.
Also an absolute rule is to ease several inches of halyard before using the furler unless you want the bearings to only last a couple of outings.
I did think about all in/all out furling à la class 40s but £12k per furler that was seriously OTT. (That’s for the v smart Facnor system). And having the sail wardrobe to go through gears isn’t the sailing I have in mind. So have finished up going for Profurl on both the staysail and genoa. 10 yr warranties are v cool. By the way, they are now black, not that awful pale green! Probably more circumnavigations than any other furler.
How long the genoa sheaves last, well we’ll see. Normally about 4/5 seasons.

 

[Numbers]

I have been pondering this post. I absolutely agree in that I have yet to find a clutch that will hold the job halyard tension when going uphill with full sail and 20 something knots over the deck, so yes it does remain on the winch.
Also an absolute rule is to ease several inches of halyard before using the furler unless you want the bearings to only last a couple of outings.
I did think about all in/all out furling à la class 40s but £12k per furler that was seriously OTT. (That’s for the v smart Facnor system). And having the sail wardrobe to go through gears isn’t the sailing I have in mind. So have finished up going for Profurl on both the staysail and genoa. 10 yr warranties are v cool. By the way, they are now black, not that awful pale green! Probably more circumnavigations than any other furler.
How long the genoa sheaves last, well we’ll see. Normally about 4/5 seasons.

Hmmm, would have been nice for my rigger to tell me about the halyard tension. So just checking I understand; the Genoa halyard tension should only be tightened once the Genoa is furled out, and loose at all other times? So: halyard loose when sail is furled up. Halyard is loose when unfurling. Halyard is only tightened after you have the sail out and you are sailing. Halyard is loosened before furling in the sail. Do I have that right?

Can you also clarify, with all the talk of leaving halyards on the winch to keep tension, is that both genoa and main halyards left on the winch (I assume the 2 coachroof winches?)

Your winches ... Harkin radial or performa ... or something flash like Karver?

 

[doris]

Hmmm, would have been nice for my rigger to tell me about the halyard tension. So just checking I understand; the Genoa halyard tension should only be tightened once the Genoa is furled out, and loose at all other times? So: halyard loose when sail is furled up. Halyard is loose when unfurling. Halyard is only tightened after you have the sail out and you are sailing. Halyard is loosened before furling in the sail. Do I have that right?

Can you also clarify, with all the talk of leaving halyards on the winch to keep tension, is that both genoa and main halyards left on the winch (I assume the 2 coachroof winches?)

Your winches ... Harkin radial or performa ... or something flash like Karver?

It’s a big subject. The halyard tension is a major contributor to the shape of a sail. When you are the top end of the range for a full foresail you will want it fairly flat with the leach open at the top, in very simple terms. A very tight halyard is the primary facilitator of the flatness.
Less wind gets a fuller sail, cracked off ditto.
Think of the load on the furler’s bearings and swivel with max tension, so ease a tad before furling. Again in simple terms.

There’s vast amounts of stuff on sail trim online and free. Spend a quiet evening looking around, especially on YouTube where you’ll get loads of demos.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Tension off but not really ‘slack’, I would say, re furling. Too slack and you’re asking for a wrap.

 

[Laser310]

i usually ease the halyard before furling.

if i am going to have the jib out again; maybe i only furled because i set the spinnaker.., i might not ease it unless it's tight enough to make furling difficult.

i always check halyard tension of the furled jib before i get off the boat, and ease it if it is tight.

it's not good for the sail for the luff to be under huge tension for days an days while the boat is just sitting there.

doris is correct about halyard tension; more wind means more tension. In addition to flattening the sail overall, and allowing the leech to twist, more halyard tension moves the draft of the sail forward, and stabilizes its position. As the sail loads up, the draft tends to move aft.., and the position of maximum draft becomes less stable - it moves back and forth. Having the draft further aft than it should be creates heeling moment, and also makes it more difficult to steer and to keep the boat in the upwind "groove".

Obviously, different sails will respond differently to halyard tension, and on an old blown out sail, it may be impossible to stabilize the drat or to get the leech to open up.

 

[oldbloke]

On what, the tack?

From a position of ignorance as a casual cruiser racer, would that be a BAD thing

 

[Chiara’s slave]

From a position of ignorance as a casual cruiser racer, would that be a BAD thing

If you want to go there and adjust it, no problem. It’s quite wet up there, and bouncy.

 

[flaming]

From a position of ignorance as a casual cruiser racer, would that be a BAD thing

Not from a sail shape point of view. Indeed a lot of the top end boats use halyard locks and downhauls, but getting the line lead aft and dealing with the halyard lock is getting a bit OTT for a cruising boat.

I have to confess that the Antal system looks to me like an extremely complicated solution to the issue of not having enough rope storage in the cockpit whilst also reducing the ability to adjust sail shape. But I'm also loath to criticise something specified by JPK without trying it, as in my experience they really know what they are talking about...

 

[michael_w]

Keep the jib halyard on a winch at the mast. Simples. Low friction, easy to adjust, not too much line to deal with, what's not to like? Problems? You have to go to adventureland forward of the cockpit.

 

[oldbloke]

If you want to go there and adjust it, no problem. It’s quite wet up there, and bouncy.

That's what crews are for

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That's what crews are for

Depends how long you want to keep them.

 

[Jaco]

Hi Doris
I have my name down for JPK 39FC so great to see your thought processes and decision making - keep them coming....
Not sure if you decided on a bow thruster - a friend cruising in the Med says he would love one.....I am unsure......have you seen the new water jet bow thrusters....https://www.jetthruster.com/kopi%C3%ABren-van-our-thrusters

 

[doris]

Hi Doris
I have my name down for JPK 39FC so great to see your thought processes and decision making - keep them coming....
Not sure if you decided on a bow thruster - a friend cruising in the Med says he would love one.....I am unsure......have you seen the new water jet bow thrusters....https://www.jetthruster.com/kopi%C3%ABren-van-our-thrusters

Jet thrusters need at least 24v to be forceful enough, preferably 48. The electrical system to support that is impractical.
Am not having a bow thruster due to the 100% certainty that one day a drop down thruster will fail and it will be at the worst moment. I’d rather learn to get by without one.

 

[dunedin]

....
Am not having a bow thruster due to the 100% certainty that one day a drop down thruster will fail and it will be at the worst moment. I’d rather learn to get by without one.

But thousands of boats have retractable bow thrusters, and I for one sm very to have it for the 99.9% of the time that it works well.
All kit, including the main ships engine, can fail, but the majority of time don't. Bow thrusters no different

 

[Laser310]

But thousands of boats have retractable bow thrusters, and I for one sm very to have it for the 99.9% ofbthe time that it works well.
All kit, including the main ships engine, can fail, but the majority of time don't. Bow thrusters no different

How many of the failures are due to people forgetting they are down, and sailing/motoring at too high a speed?

I know that they beep to warn you.., but after a while the beeping becomes background noise.

 

[dunedin]

How many of the failures are due to people forgetting they are down, and sailing/motoring at too high a speed?

I know that they beep to warn you.., but after a while the beeping becomes background noise.

Quite possibly. But there are lots of things that can get broken by neglect and / or forgetfulness.
The dual benefits of the retractable bow thruster are
(a) minimal drag when retracted, so good for performance (other than the extra weight); and
(b) gives thrust lower down and further forward than a tunnel type thruster can be fitted.
LOTS of days I have been pleased to have its assistance, especially short handed. People rarely wish they hadn’t specced the bow thruster.

 

[Laser310]

Quite possibly. But there are lots of things that can get broken by neglect and / or forgetfulness.
The dual benefits of the retractable bow thruster are
(a) minimal drag when retracted, so good for performance (other than the extra weight); and
(b) gives thrust lower down and further forward than a tunnel type thruster can be fitted.
LOTS of days I have been pleased to have its assistance, especially short handed. People rarely wish they hadn’t specced the bow thruster.

i'm not opposed...

on some boats they are great - particularly those with high freeboard up front, as they tend to get blown around.

i do think 39ft is at the lower limit of boat size where they might make sense - but it depends; if you have a particularly pathological docking situation then that would argue for it.

 

[doris]

But thousands of boats have retractable bow thrusters, and I for one sm very to have it for the 99.9% ofbthe time that it works well.
All kit, including the main ships engine, can fail, but the majority of time don't. Bow thrusters no different

I happy for you. Different strokes for different folks. I see it differently

 

[danstanford]

You’re correct in saying no solar, being UK based and marina berthed I cannot see the point. If I start cruising and anchoring a lot I might need a bit more from somewhere, I’ll worry about that in the future.
I may put a fuel cell on board, otherwise I’ll rely on the 110 amp alternator on the D130. Two alternators, in my experience always finish up causing problems and the standard set up should be fine.
Were I going round the world I would also get a wind generator but I’m not. Watt and Sea are great bits of kit but expensive and vulnerable, plus do I really need one? IMHO, no.
I should have 300ah plus so how long that lasts depends on what you’re using. Pilot, sailing instruments and a properly used fridge will be 10-12 amps if you’re trimmed properly. A fuel cell and an hour’s engine every other day should do it.
If I make it to the next AZAB I’ll probably beef things up.
Important not to over think things.

I’ll now await the incoming!!!

Fuel cells look to be the answer other than the cost. Do you feel you will need an hour of engine or just budgeting that getting in and out of harbours?

 

[doris]

Fuel cells look to be the answer other than the cost. Do you feel you will need an hour of engine or just budgeting that getting in and out of harbours?

I hate running boat engines when hard on the wind in bumpy conditions plus using them for charging knackers them quite quickly. Minimum run of 45 mins, pref 1 hour, under proper load has always been my policy. So, its has to be either hydrogen or fuel cell. A bit of a coin toss, pros and cons for both.
I'm sure I'll get shot down by some but WTF.