How to begin sailing in UK?

[PaulGS]

Can probably help. Will send you a message.

Edit. Or maybe not I think you need to make 5 posts.before being able to message.

Well that's frustrating! But thanks anyway. Or:

 

[PaulGS]

Hi PaulGS.
I’ve no fear sailing single handed at all. I would be more than happy to get you on the water..
I’m a little tied up at present though. Just been on the chopping block again this morning. Now with two new hips I should be on the water in march. If you fancy a day sail then and have a sense of humour id be very happy for you to join me. Your probably get lots of offers from like minded souls. Most of this lot here are very accomodating.
Best wishes
Steveeasy

Congratulations on having made it to an Operating Theatre in current circumstances! Ask me again when you're upright and mobile and I may well take you up on your kind offer.

 

[jamie N]

Well that's frustrating! But thanks anyway.

Paul, do yourself a favour and delete through the edit function your email address, and meet the requirement 1st with potentially banal posts, then PM! Best of luck, you'll be OK.

 

[PaulGS]

Regarding Comp Crew, there’s a good debate to be had in considering if it’s best done, assuming 5-day, together with Day Skipper or Coastal Skipper students.

Skylark, that's a very pertinent consideration. I'll check and see if there are any 'CC only' courses. Recollection of my searches is that they're usually mixed with DS (and that might even be best - I'd like to eavesdrop on their instruction!).

 

[Adios]

Skylark, that's a very pertinent consideration. I'll check and see if there are any 'CC only' courses. Recollection of my searches is that they're usually mixed with DS (and that might even be best - I'd like to eavesdrop on their instruction!).

For commercial reasons the boats will have a mix of levels all paying, makes total sense for the company. But does it for you? If i was going to pay to be trained I would want to pay to be trained to skipper a boat not be the financial prop for someone else to be trained to skipper the boat. Considering you can already sail, if you're set on doing some paid instruction, you probably only need some confidence building and larger boat maneuvering practice and general navigation and rules of the road tuition. None of which is difficult. Don't do less than day skipper ideally without someone else on board doing coastal skipper who will take much of the instructors time. That might not be possible due to the economics of it for the school but maybe you can find a quiet one that will be glad of any work and not wait to fill every slot on the boat. Ideally you want the full focus of the instructor and at the end you want to be able to skipper your own boat.

 

[Skylark]

It would be worth your while, @PaulGS to buy the RYA Yachtmaster Scheme Syllabus and Logbook, G158.

It shows all practical and Shorebased course content in detail. For each section within a practical course it shows specific objectives and defines the levels of teaching to indicate the depth to which you can expect each item to be covered.

Armed with a logbook, you’ll have a clearer understanding of each course, hence which one is for you.

With regard to mix of candidates on a boat, it’s worth a little more dialogue. Assuming a 5-day course, you’re likely to be all CC, CC and DS or CC and CS. There is merit in each. As you rightly say, you should also learn by observing DS candidates. If you’re on a boat with CS candidates you’ll likely get longer passages, maybe first hand experience of crew rota, if that’s of interest. Given reasonable weather, there is ample time during 5 days for two courses to be successfully delivered.

One of the hardest things to deal with is when a candidate presents for a course that he/she isn’t ready for. For example, a number of people will present for DS and it becomes clear very quickly that they are not ready. In some ways, this isn’t fair to the others. For the avoidance of doubt, paying a course fee does not buy a course completion certificate.

 

[Adios]

For example, a number of people will present for DS and it becomes clear very quickly that they are not ready.

Present for? As in turning up for an exam? Isn't the 5 day course supposed to teach you how to do it?

I see I'm in a minority but I really think the competent crew level is a commercial imperative, an unnecessarily small step to get paying bums on seats who are convinced they should be satisfied watching other people doing the interesting things for 5 days. Maybe if Paul has never set foot on a boat and is a slow learner or never intends to own his own boat that would be a fun holiday. More likely he doesn't need to watch someone do such simple things but can be shown and immediately do it himself.

Paul I would be very grateful if you would come back and lets us know what you did and how you found it.

 

[dunedin]

For commercial reasons the boats will have a mix of levels all paying, makes total sense for the company. But does it for you? If i was going to pay to be trained I would want to pay to be trained to skipper a boat not be the financial prop for someone else to be trained to skipper the boat. Considering you can already sail, if you're set on doing some paid instruction, you probably only need some confidence building and larger boat maneuvering practice and general navigation and rules of the road tuition. None of which is difficult. Don't do less than day skipper ideally without someone else on board doing coastal skipper who will take much of the instructors time. That might not be possible due to the economics of it for the school but maybe you can find a quiet one that will be glad of any work and not wait to fill every slot on the boat. Ideally you want the full focus of the instructor and at the end you want to be able to skipper your own boat.

This is partly about mindset and interest in learning. Being on a COURSE in theory doing Competent Crew, with others being TRAINED in DaySkipper or above, there are lots of opportunities to listen and observe and benefit from the learning from their training - and mistakes.
Clearly a bit different during an exam, but that is typically just one day, and even then good opportunities for learning for those with open minds.
And if you don’t yet have a boat, it is all a good opportunity to actually do some sailing.

 

[Skylark]

Present for? As in turning up for an exam? Isn't the 5 day course supposed to teach you how to do it?

Yes, they are courses. However, the courses are built upon clearly defined objectives. Despite the best endeavours of a dedicated instructor, some people, during the duration of a course, don’t demonstrate the level of knowledge and skills required. Standards are there to be maintained. The instructor will, of course, spend extra time with this individual but there comes a point in time when this would become detrimental to the others completing their courses. Managing this situation is a skill in itself. Maybe the student in question was given bad advice to sign-up to the wrong course by well meaning forumites, for example. ?

A common example, it’s not necessary to have done DS Shorebased to enroll upon a DS Practical course, but, the student must have a level of Shorebased knowledge equivalent to. This is tested during the course but there is not time to teach it so if the student doesn’t have those skills, there’s a gap.

It’s not unusual, during a DS course for a student to recognise and acknowledge that they will not satisfactorily complete the course. The options then are to go away with an Action Plan or, if the syllabus has been completed, to gain a CC Course Completion Certificate.

I don’t believe that this situation has changed since Noah was a boy. Not everyone gets the certificate first time round. No different to life in general.

 

[ridgy]

I think some people forget what it's like to be new to sailing. There is plenty for newcomers to think about without considering skippery things. Loading winches the right way often takes a while to sink in. Understanding the numerous ropes coming through the clutches is daunting. Reefing what's that about?
To say that CC courses are just commercial fillers is complete nonsense.

 

[Adios]

Bare in mind he can already sail a dinghy and will probably quickly remember more than he knows he forgot. Having considered the last 3 replies I think it comes down to if Paul considers himself a fairly fast learner / prefers to jump in the deep end to learn to swim rather than baby steps. And if he's interested enough and expecting to do homework before the course or wants to be entirely spoon fed while doing it.

It would be as much in not more of a shame to pay for an unnecessarily low level course rather than sign up for DS and at worst end up with a CC certificate. Baring in mind he probably has no need for these certificates, just wants the learning, its likely he will learn more of use for a soon to be skipper in the position of DS candidate than CC.

As for CC being commercial filler, yes i concede it would suit some people, particularly if they have no ambition to skipper a boat. But I still think its pushed a little hard as though everyone should do it, I think for the commercial reason to have more people on the boat not all trying to do the same thing at once, which is understandable.

 

[mjcoon]

...Loading winches the right way often takes a while to sink in. ...

A chap I've been sailing with for 40+ years sometimes loses confidence on that point and has to spin the winch to check. However, hand him a gin bottle and he instinctively knows which way to open it...

 

[TwoFish]

Skylark, that's a very pertinent consideration. I'll check and see if there are any 'CC only' courses. Recollection of my searches is that they're usually mixed with DS (and that might even be best - I'd like to eavesdrop on their instruction!).

I certainly didn't find my CC course a waste of time or money. The circumstances, during Covidian times, were pehaps a little atypical in that there were only two of us (myself and a mate) on the course. The instructors quickly recognised that we both could sail, tie knots and knew port from starboard, so took us well beyond the CC sylabus. However my subsequent Day Skipper couse was as you describe, with two of us aboard doing DS and two doing CC. Therefore the CC students got a lot of DS insight too. As others have suggested, speak to the schools and get their view on how they might stretch you a bit on a CC course if you find it all a bit basic, and make sure the instructor is briefed accordingly. Going straight to DS would be quite a big risk / investment, because you really need the theory done first in order to make the most of, or even pass the practical course.

And yes, before you start any of it, buy and digest a book or two.

 

[ylop]

What sort of sailing do you see yourself doing? If its having a small (but proper) yacht for estuary pottering, reading books (on sailing perhaps) at anchor, making the odd inter river passage at sea, the sort of thing that most people do while avoiding foul weather, just get a modest boat and start using it. If you're thinking sailing is all about sea passage making and want to voyage afar from the off then do the RYA route plus mile building things. Either way will get you to the same sort of place, the former slower but cheaper.

I think this advice is the wrong way round! Whilst I’m not saying buy a boat and go sail the world with no experience - the reality is RYA CC and DS pathway will teach and practice all the skills you need for coastal hopping including lots of things which are a cause of stress for new skippers - picking up moorings, berthing, meeting other vessels, bouyage and channels etc

you are a long way (and many thousands of training) into stuff before you are making passages on the RYA training BUT with a week of two of training you can actually learn the stuff people need for coastal hopping that experienced people here all take for granted (or muck up every time, shout at their wives about and means they use their boat less often ;-)

I see I'm in a minority but I really think the competent crew level is a commercial imperative, an unnecessarily small step to get paying bums on seats who are convinced they should be satisfied watching other people doing the interesting things for 5 days.

if the CC are just watching people then either the instructor or the DS shouldn’t be there! The DS should be using the crew to get stuff done. The Instructor shouldn’t really need to teach the DS for 80% of stuff so should be able to teach the CC the basics
[/QUOTE]

Bare in mind he can already sail a dinghy and will probably quickly remember more than he knows he forgot.

possibly - but there’s a broad range of dinghy sailors. Those who could happily pack a tent and go away for a weekend to those who make it round a set of cans but wherever anything goes wrong gets a tow from the club rescue boat.

BUT I’d say even if you can sail dinghies you might have a learning curve: picking up a mooring is very different when you can’t hear the crew or see the bouy; you’ve probably never used a winch; if you’ve anchored it almost certainly didn’t involve a windlass; you may never have got from a high freeboard yacht into a tender; you probably haven’t tied fenders on; you may well have never used springs; you’ll have tied up alongside but probably never with lifelines to get the wrong side of the ropes; you may never have furled a headsail; you won’t have used single line refund and probably not even slab reefing on modern dinghies; you’ll never have sailed with a wheel; you probably haven’t steered to a compass bearing; you probably haven’t steered to wind instruments; you’ll likely never have considered a liferaft, cooking on board, seasickness, crew comfort etc that come with sailing for days rather than just popping back to the clubhouse when you want to etc.

It would be as much in not more of a shame to pay for an unnecessarily low level course rather than sign up for DS and at worst end up with a CC certificate. Baring in mind he probably has no need for these certificates, just wants the learning, its likely he will learn more of use for a soon to be skipper in the position of DS candidate than CC.

any respectable school will advise him.

As for CC being commercial filler, yes i concede it would suit some people, particularly if they have no ambition to skipper a boat. But I still think its pushed a little hard as though everyone should do it, I think for the commercial reason to have more people on the boat not all trying to do the same thing at once, which is understandable.

I don’t know if you’ve had a bad experience with CC but what you are concerned about is very different to my experience — at the end of my DS course the CC who were with me could sail the boat, I could have left them to tack up the clyde for an hour. One of them had never sailed the other two had done some holiday dinghy sailing but would never have taken a dinghy out without instructors around. My DS “training” wasn’t how to sail - it was how to manage a crew.

 

[PaulGS]

Paul I would be very grateful if you would come back and lets us know what you did and how you found it.

I'll certailny do that!

 

[Adios]

I think this advice is the wrong way round! Whilst I’m not saying buy a boat and go sail the world with no experience - the reality is RYA CC and DS pathway will teach and practice all the skills you need for coastal hopping including lots of things which are a cause of stress for new skippers - picking up moorings, berthing, meeting other vessels, bouyage and channels etc

you are a long way (and many thousands of training) into stuff before you are making passages on the RYA training BUT with a week of two of training you can actually learn the stuff people need for coastal hopping that experienced people here all take for granted (or muck up every time, shout at their wives about and means they use their boat less often ;-)

if the CC are just watching people then either the instructor or the DS shouldn’t be there! The DS should be using the crew to get stuff done. The Instructor shouldn’t really need to teach the DS for 80% of stuff so should be able to teach the CC the basics

possibly - but there’s a broad range of dinghy sailors. Those who could happily pack a tent and go away for a weekend to those who make it round a set of cans but wherever anything goes wrong gets a tow from the club rescue boat.

BUT I’d say even if you can sail dinghies you might have a learning curve: picking up a mooring is very different when you can’t hear the crew or see the bouy; you’ve probably never used a winch; if you’ve anchored it almost certainly didn’t involve a windlass; you may never have got from a high freeboard yacht into a tender; you probably haven’t tied fenders on; you may well have never used springs; you’ll have tied up alongside but probably never with lifelines to get the wrong side of the ropes; you may never have furled a headsail; you won’t have used single line refund and probably not even slab reefing on modern dinghies; you’ll never have sailed with a wheel; you probably haven’t steered to a compass bearing; you probably haven’t steered to wind instruments; you’ll likely never have considered a liferaft, cooking on board, seasickness, crew comfort etc that come with sailing for days rather than just popping back to the clubhouse when you want to etc.

any respectable school will advise him.

I don’t know if you’ve had a bad experience with CC but what you are concerned about is very different to my experience — at the end of my DS course the CC who were with me could sail the boat, I could have left them to tack up the clyde for an hour. One of them had never sailed the other two had done some holiday dinghy sailing but would never have taken a dinghy out without instructors around. My DS “training” wasn’t how to sail - it was how to manage a crew.

The thing is nothing that you mention is actually difficult to figure out by yourself or with a little reading around. How to pick up a mooring buoy? Just try it and work it out. Watch a youtube video. (don't get sucked into doing too much of that though)

I think without some other info its hard to know which side of all this to come down on. The size of the boat the OP intends to get, EG would it even have an anchor windlass? I've had boats up to 38ft and none have so far. There are one or two anchor threads here to read if he wants. None of my boats have had wind instruments either. How much of a hurry he's in to be doing coastal passages. If he likes working stuff out from himself. If he's a confident sort who will get on with it or end up too nervous to leave the mooring. He did express concern that he might be spending money that would otherwise go to the boat and doing CC and then DS could come to over a thousand pounds. Price of a trailer sailer. Depends on this finances.

I think no one here would say doing any RYA is essential. It wasn't for me even before the internet and all the info that is available for him now. Its a nice to have. I've since done some RYA stuff and its mostly OK. I just prefer to get on with things though and like self directed learning as and when I'm about to apply it. It sticks in then. Some people like doing stuff with other people, I get impatient if I'm not just getting on with it but then I'm confident and a quick learner and like working out ways to do things.

Bare in mind Paul that people who did the courses don't know how they would have fared without. People who didn't like me don't know how it would have been with it. And some on here make their living or partly by providing the courses. So take everyone's advice with a pinch of sea salt.

 

[ylop]

Watch a youtube video.

there are some good YT videos although there’s a lot of mediocre ones and just because one channel seems to be good at picking up a mooring doesn’t mean they’ll be as good at explaining tacking or sail trim. You could waste a lot of time sorting the good from the bad and even more if you don’t have a logical pattern to learn them in. Of course the same is true of sailing schools - learning to crew a 45’er is not the same an 25’er; not all instructors are good etc.

however the thing about self learning is it’s great until either you just don’t get something (which an in person instructor can sort in 20 minutes) or something goes wrong. Great you’ve got a halyard jammed and haven’t progressed to the videos on that stuff…. Now you have sail permanently up and have never controlled a boat coming into a marina under sail…

I’m not saying people shouldn’t self teach - but better if they decide to it for their own reasons than a few people on the net saying a well established training programme is an unnecessary waste of time. After all if you could really learn to sail online someone would have monetized that for a fraction of the RYA price!

 

[Adios]

however the thing about self learning is it’s great until either you just don’t get something (which an in person instructor can sort in 20 minutes) or something goes wrong. Great you’ve got a halyard jammed and haven’t progressed to the videos on that stuff…. Now you have sail permanently up and have never controlled a boat coming into a marina under sail…

No training will cover every eventuality anyway. Going to sea in small boats is a poor choice for people who aren't capable of thinking on their feet.

a few people on the net saying a well established training programme is an unnecessary waste of time.

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said? But anyway I've said it so no need to repeat myself.

After all if you could really learn to sail online someone would have monetized that for a fraction of the RYA price!

thats what the millions of youtube video producers have done. People put a lot of effort into making instructional videos on youtube which make them some income.

But a lot of video is as you say a waste of time, horribly waffling before getting to one bit of useful info. Gets frustrating after a while. But at least its free. Better to learn from a good book IMO, while doing it.

 

[ylop]

No training will cover every eventuality anyway. Going to sea in small boats is a poor choice for people who aren't capable of thinking on their feet.

of course it won’t - but if you are confident in the basics it’s a lot easier to work out what to do and adapt.

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said?

im not- I’m telling you the impression that you (and some others) give.

thats what the millions of youtube video producers have done

not from what I’ve seen - I don’t see anyone claiming watch all our videos and you’ll be as good as a comp crew etc - there are snippets of good stuff (free) but unless I’ve missed it nobody teaching whole courses. If someone really could do that they could charge for it and traditional schools would lose business. I don’t see any evidence of that - schools are busy. I’m actually a bit surprised nobody has done it for DS theory - you could get candidates to the standard needed to do DS practical without actually having the overhead of the RYA scheme and so undercut RYA schools for people who don’t need the paperwork. But learning classroom work is quite different from learning how wind and tide feel, or realising that your crew are cold or queasy and need a change of plan.

 

[ProDave]

All I can add to this discussion is because you will have to travel to get to your boat, it definitely needs to be something you are comfortable sleeping on. Some of the smaller "pocket cruisers" can be a bit basic and not to everyones taste these days. We are probably in the minority these days sleeping on our little tub.

And before you decide what to buy, first take a drive around your chosen cruising area and look at all the options for berths or moorings, and most importantly find out who has vacancies and how much. Only then can you decide on what boat to buy, e,g if the only berth you can find that you can afford is in a drying harbour, then not much point looking at fin keel boats.