How to begin sailing in UK?

[Adios]

Did you miss the context of my reply? The post was full of many errors, which I corrected, and have nothing to do with the ICC. I believe that you have misunderstood.

I'm not sure what you were intending but I think you missed the point of what he was saying in the first place. He can already do it, just wanted a ticket. It doesn't mater what convoluted system has been concocted to hand them out so I'm not sure your explanation of that tangled web does other than confirm it is overly complicated for someone who already knows how to do it, just wants to be able to get a ticket to show a Frenchman, in a simple cheap way. But it mirrors my impression of the commercial set up and the way everyone who has done takes it for normal and encourages others to go through the same process. Its all perfectly understandable to be like that for commercial imperatives. Just a bit unfortunate for people who just want to step on at other than ground floor.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I'm not sure what you were intending but I think you missed the point of what he was saying in the first place. He can already do it, just wanted a ticket. It doesn't mater what convoluted system has been concocted to hand them out so I'm not sure your explanation of that tangled web does other than confirm it is overly complicated for someone who already knows how to do it, just wants to be able to get a ticket to show a Frenchman, in a simple cheap way. But it mirrors my impression of the commercial set up and the way everyone who has done takes it for normal and encourages others to go through the same process. Its all perfectly understandable to be like that for commercial imperatives. Just a bit unfortunate for people who just want to step on at other than ground floor.

I am sure what you are intending though. I have no criticism of any one who learns to sail any way they can. The ICC is a good way to get recognition for organisations which need sailors to have that.

The RYA has a structured scheme, that is simple to understand and works for many.

There have been wrong statements about the RYA training scheme on this thread, some of which have been corrected. The negativity that you show towards the RYA sea schools is nothing new, it’s always been there, expressed by others a lot more forceful than you. However, the praise for the scheme and sea schools that deliver it, massively exceeds the minority of those who criticise the sea schools.

 

[Adios]

I am sure what you are intending though.

Eh?? What would that be then?

The negativity that you show towards the RYA sea schools

WHERE WAS THAT??!! In the first post on this thread I said if he's wanting to quickly do sea passages do the RYA courses and also mile building. Seriously its like a cult the way people get defensive over someone merely suggesting its not the be all and end all or the only way to do things.

Just had a count up and over the last 20 years I've done 6 RYA things, in order: ICC, VHF, YM shore based, PBL2, First aid, safety boat. Here they are so you'll have no reason to doubt me



Its all fine but I don't think it was essential as I was self taught most of the content with reading and doing before and I still think that was the best way because it really goes in and stays in when having had to do the work to get the info rather than being fed it, and then used in anger with no distractions and no one to fall back on. And done gradually over a longer period of time.

Each of the RYA things I did were as well done as I could imagine was possible but it was a clear compromise due to time constraints and having to do it in a group. Its mostly too much info to cram in a too long day/days. There are some interacting people and some passive virtually asleep people. On practical things taking it in turns makes it bitty rather than all joined up as a cohesive activity. I bet you could find people with a raft of RYA courses done who are still rubbish with boats because they cruised in the background on the days and haven't made effort to cement the knowledge afterwards by actually doing it. That's not a criticism of the RYA, you can take a horse to water etc. One of the 84% of boat owners who never left the marina in a year perhaps. The point being that even after any RYA course you still need to really learn what you learnt, You understand that? You still have to slot it properly into your psyche and muscle memory. Its really the bulk of the learning process. Doing something a few times on a condensed course among a hundred other things is not the end of learning those things. The initial part can be from an instructor or from a book or watching someone else do it or working it out yourself. Then you hone it and embed it in yourself.

All around the coast you'll find people who haven't done any RYA that are highly competent because they've just been doing it for years and you can't get away with doing boating for long without needing to know how to do it. And I bet the RYA would be the first to say that's great, fine. Its for people who want it. Does everyone need it? No. Does everyone have to start there? No. Its just the fervent disciples on here that seem slightly obsessed would say so. Maybe because for them it was the best way, they feel surely everyone needs it the way they did. Its not that black and white.

 

[capnsensible]

Shows, doesn't it, how flexible the RYA scheme is, being able to enter at all levels, from novice to experie ced sailor.

And how you can ignore it completely if you wish.

 

[Adios]

And how you can ignore it completely if you wish.

You can. Just be prepared for a weird backlash on here if you suggest that as an alternative lifestyle.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

You can. Just be prepared for a weird backlash on here if you suggest that as an alternative lifestyle.

On one hand you imply that RYA supporters are cultists, on the other hand you parade your RYA certificates. You act confused and clearly have an issue when posts correcting misinformation about the RYA are made. Any reasonable analysis of what has been written in this thread would see that both the RYA and other methods are supported by the same people.

 

[Adios]

Any reasonable analysis of what has been written in this thread...

I hope some reasonable analysts happen by soon but I doubt it

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I hope some reasonable analysts happen by soon but I doubt it

You mean ones that agree with your view point.

 

[capnsensible]

You can. Just be prepared for a weird backlash on here if you suggest that as an alternative lifestyle.

Having been in the biz for 25 years, I'm always happy to offer practical advice on Recognised Training Centres and courses to any poster.

Free.

 

[laika]

With regard to mix of candidates on a boat, it’s worth a little more dialogue. Assuming a 5-day course, you’re likely to be all CC, CC and DS or CC and CS. There is merit in each.

Having been on a “YM prep week” which included students doing CC and DS my advice to a friend looking to do CC would be to avoid “mixed” courses. The CC syllabus is excellent with plenty to fill a week but with a mix of other courses, less than half the time is going to be spent on those skills. Maybe rather less, as more advanced candidates will feel more short changed by focus on basic skills than people being exposed to more advanced topics than they’ve paid to learn.

Exposure to other skills may be interesting, but isn’t it better to focus on learning what’s on the actual CC syllabus and leave the other skills to the courses that actually teach them?

I’m not convinced that the experience of being commanded by novice daysippers is beneficial to a beginning comp crew. “Management” of incompetent skippers is a rather advanced crewing topic.

 

[capnsensible]

Having been on a “YM prep week” which included students doing CC and DS my advice to a friend looking to do CC would be to avoid “mixed” courses. The CC syllabus is excellent with plenty to fill a week but with a mix of other courses, less than half the time is going to be spent on those skills. Maybe rather less, as more advanced candidates will feel more short changed by focus on basic skills than people being exposed to more advanced topics than they’ve paid to learn.

Exposure to other skills may be interesting, but isn’t it better to focus on learning what’s on the actual CC syllabus and leave the other skills to the courses that actually teach them?

I’m not convinced that the experience of being commanded by novice daysippers is beneficial to a beginning comp crew. “Management” of incompetent skippers is a rather advanced crewing topic.

I've run hundreds of mixed courses. It's really not that difficult to give 4 or 5 people value for money. In fact they can be great fun and an invaluable insight as to what ambitions can be achieved. It's not for those looking for holiday 9 to 5 sailing though. It's hard work for everyone.

 

[Adios]

Having been on a “YM prep week” which included students doing CC and DS my advice to a friend looking to do CC would be to avoid “mixed” courses. The CC syllabus is excellent with plenty to fill a week but with a mix of other courses, less than half the time is going to be spent on those skills. Maybe rather less, as more advanced candidates will feel more short changed by focus on basic skills than people being exposed to more advanced topics than they’ve paid to learn.

Exposure to other skills may be interesting, but isn’t it better to focus on learning what’s on the actual CC syllabus and leave the other skills to the courses that actually teach them?

I’m not convinced that the experience of being commanded by novice daysippers is beneficial to a beginning comp crew. “Management” of incompetent skippers is a rather advanced crewing topic.

Yes thats the problem i've been getting at. The trouble is how can the boat run cost effectively without having that number of bums on seats and they can't all be doing the same thing. I can't help feeling the splitting into CC and DS is partly in fact created just for that. Why else not just teach everyone what they need to know to sail a boat as the first level? It seems an inevitable and unavoidable problem but it might not have been if the schools didn't have only £100k boats. I'd think a couple of DS students on a smaller cheaper sort of boat they'd likely buy would be able to be profitable and more useful.

 

[Wansworth]

In my old tore out dinghy I took over from my dad I leart how to anchour,come along side,reef at sea ,heave too so Iwas ready when I went big time in a cabined cruiser.

 

[laika]

Why else not just teach everyone what they need to know to sail a boat as the first level?

I’ll suggest because there’s a lot to learn. The CC syllabus, if taught well, can easily fill a 5 day course and should give folk seamanship skills well in advance of what many recreational skippers have. DS is theoretically a distinct and complimentary skill set which again fits nicely into 5 days theory and 5 days practical. You learn by watching others try the things you’re supposed to be learning, which is why I’d suggest “mixed” courses, while undoubtedly a commercial necessity, would be something I’d advise a friend to avoid if possible

 

[Dutch01527]

Wow, I had not realised that questioning some RYA training was so controversial.

I was trying to answer the original question asked in this thread - how does someone with limited budget get started sailing. My answer was via clubs where there are highly likely to be people who welcome crew, most clubs have retirees who sail alone mid week and would welcome company. Paying the RYA or anyone else is, in my opinion, unnecessary initially.

Some of the other comments about my not understanding the rha process are undoubtedly true. I can only go on what I was told by the two sea schools I phoned - you need to do coastal skipper first and then yacht master plus the theory needs to be face to face in a class room for at least 40 hours. I do not think rya online courses existed at the time I asked the question. See link for example of what I was told : RYA Yachtmaster Theory Course - 6 Day Solent Based £399. That was not the right way for me but I was told no flexibility. I accept that might have not been accurate and also my background is somewhat unusual.

I did the ICC in the end. Couple of hours revision mainly on lights, sounds and shapes I had forgotten on a online app for £50 and a 1/2 day practical on the examiners boat for £200.

 

[capnsensible]

Yes thats the problem i've been getting at. The trouble is how can the boat run cost effectively without having that number of bums on seats and they can't all be doing the same thing. I can't help feeling the splitting into CC and DS is partly in fact created just for that. Why else not just teach everyone what they need to know to sail a boat as the first level? It seems an inevitable and unavoidable problem but it might not have been if the schools didn't have only £100k boats. I'd think a couple of DS students on a smaller cheaper sort of boat they'd likely buy would be able to be profitable and more useful.

You have your chicken and egg the wrong way round.

 

[Sandy]

Having been on a “YM prep week” which included students doing CC and DS my advice to a friend looking to do CC would be to avoid “mixed” courses.

My experience is different. I'd be encouraging a friend to go on a mixed course. Get out the on a boat that is actually doing something, with people who should be able to pass on knowledge, the instructor and YM candidates. I can only imagine the chaos that five CC students and an instructor could generate and that is before getting the boat off the pontoon.

Disclaimer: I frequently take total novices to sea and instruct to CC level as part of crew of 20 with four or five experienced sailors.

 

[capnsensible]

My experience is different. I'd be encouraging a friend to go on a mixed course. Get out the on a boat that is actually doing something, with people who should be able to pass on knowledge, the instructor and YM candidates. I can only imagine the chaos that five CC students and an instructor could generate and that is before getting the boat off the pontoon.

Disclaimer: I frequently take total novices to sea and instruct to CC level as part of crew of 20 with four or five experienced sailors.

Again, not a problem. Taking 4 or 5 competent crew students out is a particularly rewarding course as you see people develop into a team in 5 days.

 

[lustyd]

I've run hundreds of mixed courses. It's really not that difficult to give 4 or 5 people value for money. In fact they can be great fun and an invaluable insight as to what ambitions can be achieved. It's not for those looking for holiday 9 to 5 sailing though. It's hard work for everyone.

Completely agree with this. A boat will generally only take 4-5 plus instructor anyway, and if they were all DS or CS, or even YM candidates then they'll spend a lot of time doing CC stuff simply because the boat needs a crew. If there is one or two DS+ on board they concentrate on skippering while the CC people do all the "boring" crew stuff, which certainly won't be boring to them. The CC people benefit from seeing the next steps, while the DS+ people get a refresher on best practice as crew. What's not to love with that system? A boat full of CC would have very few sailing stories over evening drinks too, how dull that would be!

 

[capnsensible]

Actually, runs ashore with a competent crew course are generally interesting. I get to find out a lot about the things normal people do for a living.

Also it's the opportunity for students to have thought about things that happened during the day and ask about them. Especially if they have been a bit nervous or a bit motion sick during the training sessions.