How to begin sailing in UK?

Mister E

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I would think it would be hard work doing Competent Crew and having 4 bosses all doing Day Skipper.
Doing the work for 4 and having to pay for the privilege. ;)
 

dunedin

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[Unwelcome quoted content removed]
Presumably you posted that comment to ensure a holiday from the forum over the Christmas season? How many rules does that break to post in Scuttlebut? Way off any relevance on here. (And also the “good sense” has been convincingly demolished by “fact checkers”)
 
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Chiara’s slave

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Presumably you posted that comment to ensure a holiday from the forum over the Christmas season? How many rules does that break to post in Scuttlebut? Way off any relevance on here. (And also the “good sense” has been convincingly demolished by “fact checkers”)
One thing I have learned here in my relatively short time is not to respond to conspiracists no matter how much your fingers itch.
 

laika

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The CC people benefit from seeing the next steps, while the DS+ people get a refresher on best practice as crew. What's not to love with that system?

That there’s enough to cover in the course you’ve actually paid for without half the time or more being devoted to a different course, be it a “refresher” DS candidates shouldn’t need (and is unfair on those that have actually complied with the course pre-requisites) or topics which the students may or may not want to learn after CC. Sure people benefit from being on a boat with people doing boaty things, but they won’t learn as much about the CC syllabus watching day skipper candidates motoring up to a buoy as they would being taught and practising the things on the syllabus.

If the CC course was how many perceive it, and thanks to an awful instructor was actually my experience (ie sitting in the back of a boat and occasionally making it fast for 5 days before being signed off as knowing things I'd never been taught) I'd agree with you, but I'll say it again its a well structured syllabus which if well taught could easily fill a week.

NB...I'm absolutely not saying that a good instructor can't make a mixed group work. Obviously they do all the time. I'm only suggesting my own opinion is that one would get better value for money with a single certificate group. Obviously I respect that others have different opinions
 

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That there’s enough to cover in the course you’ve actually paid for without half the time or more being devoted to a different course, be it a “refresher” DS candidates shouldn’t need (and is unfair on those that have actually complied with the course pre-requisites) or topics which the students may or may not want to learn after CC. Sure people benefit from being on a boat with people doing boaty things, but they won’t learn as much about the CC syllabus watching day skipper candidates motoring up to a buoy as they would being taught and practising the things on the syllabus.

If the CC course was how many perceive it, and thanks to an awful instructor was actually my experience (ie sitting in the back of a boat and occasionally making it fast for 5 days before being signed off as knowing things I'd never been taught) I'd agree with you, but I'll say it again its a well structured syllabus which if well taught could easily fill a week.

NB...I'm absolutely not saying that a good instructor can't make a mixed group work. Obviously they do all the time. I'm only suggesting my own opinion is that one would get better value for money with a single certificate group. Obviously I respect that others have different opinions
But 5 CC to one instructor won't be much better. Its a student teacher ration problem. I don't know what the economics are to know if 5 per teacher is giving bad value for money and the school is getting rich from it or if they'd still make a reasonable profit with 2 students but would guess judging by the cost of the boats and the coding for commercial use etc etc and paying staffs huge wages to pay their huge mortgages its probably the minimum they can get away with unless you want to pay double for a better ratio.
 

ylop

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But 5 CC to one instructor won't be much better. Its a student teacher ration problem. I don't know what the economics are to know if 5 per teacher is giving bad value for money and the school is getting rich from it or if they'd still make a reasonable profit with 2 students but would guess judging by the cost of the boats and the coding for commercial use etc etc and paying staffs huge wages to pay their huge mortgages its probably the minimum they can get away with unless you want to pay double for a better ratio.
You could pay for 1 on 1 if you wanted. Obviously won’t be cheap (although I don’t think sailing schools usually pay “huge wages”). But in amongst your poorly constructed debate there are a few snippets that potentially are of value to the OP and anyone else pondering the same issue:
- not everyone learns the same way; don’t feel obliged to follow a structured pathway if it’s not for you.
- mixing books, videos, practical experience and watching others mistakes is often a good way to learn - the relative proportions of those will vary from person to person, and even with different types of course
- not all sailing schools (or instructors within a school) are equal; pricing is often fairly similar so shop around for a school that meets YOUR needs and teaches in a way you like; there’s pros and cons to busy boats and quiet ones; to big schools and little ones; to old boats and new ones; to sunshine and light winds v rain and storms;
- whilst there’s a lot of focus on the RYA certificates, the entry criteria for many of the courses expect you to have gone and sailed yourself in between them; you need to reinforce the learning AND will probably learn a lot without an instructor around.
 

Praxinoscope

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It’s very much a personal thing about how one learns to sail and whether to undertake any programmed courses.
For me I started sailing in a friends Mirror dinghy, (possibly spent more time in the water than on it).
The friend said he fancied something bigger so 4 of us (all in our early 20’s) agreed to buy something together, a Leisure 17,
and that is where I started to practice navigation etc. No courses just learning as we went, including Channel crossing from Christchurch to Cherbourg.
We eventually wanted something bigger so we bought a Foxterrier 22 ( part complete, we did the finishing ) we managed Brittany and the Channel Islands in this, it was when we bought the Foxterrier that I decided to do thé RYA shorebased courses, was lucky in that the local authority evening classes did these shorebased courses, so followed the system through to YM , and then did the YM Ocean at the Little Ship Club. At this point only shore-based learning plus logging the mileage as we sailed around.
I finally booked my YM exam but included a 5 day YM practical to iron out the bad habits and pick up on gaps in my knowledge.
I still have my G16/78 log book with passages logged and certificates recorded by the RYA.
A month after the practical course I did the exam an passed and proudly have a YM cert of competence.
There are plenty of other, possibly better ways of learning, but in 50 years of sailing this route has served me well, so adopt what you think will suit you best, but I would certainly recommend doing the RYA shore-based syllabus it covers a lot of things sailing from scratch won’t, and it will help you be a safer sailor in the long run.
 

lustyd

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You could pay for 1 on 1 if you wanted. Obviously won’t be cheap
I paid for 1:1 on my boat a couple of times and it was excellent value for money. I preferred the courses for general learning with a sylabus, but when I bought a new boat (almost double the length of the old boat) and wanted help with handling, and when I wanted my partner to gain confidence at the helm (aka parking and mooring) I can't think of anything better than a calm RYA person on board for the cost of a couple of ropes. I don't want to say cheap in case they increase prices, but it wasn't far off!
 

Chiara’s slave

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I paid for 1:1 on my boat a couple of times and it was excellent value for money. I preferred the courses for general learning with a sylabus, but when I bought a new boat (almost double the length of the old boat) and wanted help with handling, and when I wanted my partner to gain confidence at the helm (aka parking and mooring) I can't think of anything better than a calm RYA person on board for the cost of a couple of ropes. I don't want to say cheap in case they increase prices, but it wasn't far off!
And in any case, is there a price you wouldn’t pay to help keep your fantastic boat in top condition? I’d pay for boat handling instruction, but I’m not convinced that an instructor used to monos is going to be any better informed than me. It might happen though, we rule nothing out.
 

Bodach na mara

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I notice the PaulGS (the OP in case you have forgotten) has not posted for a page or two. Maybe he's lost the will to read more long arguments about RYA courses.
Too get back to the point, he is an experienced GP14 sailor and now wants to get into possible ownership of a bigger boat. I wanted to do that too in the early 1960s and along with 3 other young lads chartered a Folkboat. One of the earlier posts reminded me of that and the fact that as we left the shelter of Cardwell bay and the boat heeled in the wind my experience in a GP14 led me to jump to release the main sheet much to the amusement of the other three.
There were no RYA courses at that time, no sailing schools and none of us had any money. We just taught ourselves to sail in cheap (old) dinghies and quite soon bought cheap ( very old) keelboats. We didn't have to know how to use instruments or radios as we didn't have any. And over 60 years later I am still sailing, occasionally running aground and probably behaving irresponsibly.
Find somewhere that you can sail, get a small boat and just do it. You know more than you realise.
 

lustyd

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People used to learn to drive that way too. Unfortunately there comes a point where it’s too busy to just have a go, and the likelihood of ruining someone else’s pride and joy goes up due to the sheer number of boats. Of course it’s possible to learn that way, but a course is a tiny outlay in the context of boat ownership so why not do it the easy way? If the cost is too high then is owning a boat even realistic?
 

capnsensible

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But 5 CC to one instructor won't be much better. Its a student teacher ration problem. I don't know what the economics are to know if 5 per teacher is giving bad value for money and the school is getting rich from it or if they'd still make a reasonable profit with 2 students but would guess judging by the cost of the boats and the coding for commercial use etc etc and paying staffs huge wages to pay their huge mortgages its probably the minimum they can get away with unless you want to pay double for a better ratio.
5 to 1 is the limit by the rules for Recognised Training Centres. I can't remember the last time I ever coached a course of 5.
Edit to add, outside of the Joint Services Sailing Centre in Gosport. Where the whole cruising scheme was born.

3 or 4 is normal. Especially in Overseas RTCs.
 

capnsensible

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And in any case, is there a price you wouldn’t pay to help keep your fantastic boat in top condition? I’d pay for boat handling instruction, but I’m not convinced that an instructor used to monos is going to be any better informed than me. It might happen though, we rule nothing out.
I really enjoy sailing all sorts of different boats. The challenge keeps everything fresh. Different handling characteristics. Different engines, rigs , electronics. And most importantly, many different people.
 

ylop

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Too get back to the point, he is an experienced GP14 sailor and now wants to get into possible ownership of a bigger boat.
that’s not quite what he said! He described himself as having owned a GP14 on a reservoir a long time ago. Now he could be a modest GP14 inland champion, or he could be someone who bought a boat and sailed it round the local reservoir half a dozen times only on nice days. I suspect he’s probably somewhere in the between. However, as a former dinghy sailor who learned on insland waters, there’s quite a leap from sailing round in circles (probably with a safety boat not far away) to sailing from A to B with tidal heights and streams to think about. He may never have used an engine, never have anchored, never read a chart, etc.
I wanted to do that too in the early 1960s and along with 3 other young lads chartered a Folkboat.
he almost certainly won’t find someone willing to charter him a boat without qualifications (or maybe a very good, verifiable “CV”) - other than perhaps the broads.

Find somewhere that you can sail, get a small boat and just do it. You know more than you realise.
i think there is an argument that if you are an experienced gp14 sailor then moving up to a sailfish or a coribee (purely as examples) is not a giant leap and he may well follow that path without instruction. Especially if he was to do it somewhere non tidal like the lakes (given his reservoir background). However, I inferred (and I accept that I’ve jumped to some conclusions here) that when he said “own a proper boat” and that he was in his 60s he might be looking for something a bit more comfortable and looking to the sea.

there are no cheap charter options nowadays, in fact when you look at the cost of a charter a CC course starts to look like a reasonable deal.
 

Chiara’s slave

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I really enjoy sailing all sorts of different boats. The challenge keeps everything fresh. Different handling characteristics. Different engines, rigs , electronics. And most importantly, many different people.
I don’t doubt you’d have fun and be good company. Whether you’d be any better than me at parking the good ship Chiara in a tight marina berth on a windy day is kind of where I was heading with that. Straight off the bat, I doubt it. Though equally, you'd pick it up quickly. I can promise that the open sea on that same day is a lot more fun than berthing.
 

Daydream believer

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Even with 5:1 Iwould have thought that a decent instructor would give all the crew jobs to do- Trimming sails, watching out forother boats & learning how to decide when to bear away/tack, watching for leeway .answering the VHF, calling the depths. looking for leading marks, taking bearings, writing timed position notes in the log etc It is not all about twiddling the stick. They should also be watching & listening to what the instructor is telling others.
Instruction is a 2 way constructive process. If the 4Th & 5Th persons are just going to sit there & stare at the sky, then they never really were going to learn much anyway.
There is only so much spoon feeding an instructor can do, regardless of ratios. If one is too "shy" to communicate then I might suspect that they are not actually of a disposition suited to sailing in the first place. Although being quite the opposite, I am not really the one to comment with experience of that.
 

ylop

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There is only so much spoon feeding an instructor can do, regardless of ratios. If one is too "shy" to communicate then I might suspect that they are not actually of a disposition suited to sailing in the first place. Although being quite the opposite, I am not really the one to comment with experience of that.
Sailing seems like a great activity for shy people. You don’t have to put up with all the gregarious folk on your own boat! Fortunately there are instructors around who know enough about teaching to work with candidates of all different personalities. Worth saying again though that not all schools/instructors are equal!
 

Daydream believer

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Sailing seems like a great activity for shy people. You don’t have to put up with all the gregarious folk on your own boat! Fortunately there are instructors around who know enough about teaching to work with candidates of all different personalities. Worth saying again though that not all schools/instructors are equal!
The shy nervous few that I know; whilst being very nice people; are hopeless sailors. :rolleyes:
I have been trying to persuade one couple in particular, to take a one day own boat tuition, to show them how to berth in a marina. That would then allow them to apply for a berth & carry on sailing ( they have a mooring & are finding getting to the boat difficult). They are just too frightened of having instruction with a stranger in case he embarrasses them, or wants them to do something "scary". They have had a small cruiser for 15 years & a wayfarer for 20 years. . They are no way financially restrained
 
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