PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
If you have not paid the yard, how can you take them to court ?
Help with boat yard dispute
- Thread starter SailingEd
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If you have not paid the yard, how can you take them to court ?
Quandary
Well-Known Member
All this 'lie down roll over and let them have their way with you' advice is exactly the reason that things like this happen, the more it continues the worse the service we get will become. The situation is far from unique, it is certainly commonplace here with even the largest and most reputable boatyard. as long as we have people telling us 'That is the way it is, just suck it up' there is no incentive for yards to improve the way they manage stuff..
A few years ago I suffered the disappointment of similar service, bringing the boat at an alloted time to be told when I got there that they could not start for weeks, taking it away and when they eventually started' a shoddy incomplete job with two main items not dealt with and the main one visibly unatisfactory, then the extended wrangle over their bill which was exactly the same as their estimate even though I had to execute two major items on it myself. Because it was an incident caused by and paid for by someone else they thought I would not care. I paid what was fair, their manager no longer speaks to me on the street but he is no longer in post, I wonder why, perhaps I was not the only customer with a problem?
A few years ago I suffered the disappointment of similar service, bringing the boat at an alloted time to be told when I got there that they could not start for weeks, taking it away and when they eventually started' a shoddy incomplete job with two main items not dealt with and the main one visibly unatisfactory, then the extended wrangle over their bill which was exactly the same as their estimate even though I had to execute two major items on it myself. Because it was an incident caused by and paid for by someone else they thought I would not care. I paid what was fair, their manager no longer speaks to me on the street but he is no longer in post, I wonder why, perhaps I was not the only customer with a problem?
Hallberg-Rassy
Well-Known Member
Ipso facto, he knows he trying to screw you and can't face you.
Truth be, I've not followed the mathematics precisely here - what fascinates me more is how many people are beta dogs and either rolling over for the alpha dog (yard owner) or taking his side. May be they're all yard owner/manager/workers too? - but I'd say the £110 deposit should cover the yards costs just fine. It's tempting to tell them to GFT but don't, as it could only be used against you. Far better to remain cool, polite, but persistent, and don't shift your position.
Have you got the boat out of the yard/their slip yet? If not, row across the river/bay and sail it away tonight before you do, or say, or write ANYTHING. "Possession is 9/10ths of the law", and all that. 99/100th in this case.
Ditto, don't commit to anything verbally or in writing in any way at all. If pressured, just say, "let me think about it, let me take advice on that" etc.
Secondly, although I'd use the invoice from the engineer to prove to the yard the consequences of their actions, If they didn't stay for the full time, I'd ALSO negotiate them down too.
Because they probably just went back to their workshop and did other chargeable work instead. Everyone's always got other work to do. A fair call out fee and waiting time ... fine. You want to keep them sweet. But let's get real out about what's going on. I'm half expecting them to have played this racket with the yard before because, for sure they'll have worked in it before.
I think they are both taking you for a ride.
You've really got to ask what sort of vibes you are putting out.
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Chae_73
Well-Known Member
It's interesting as to what extent the trades and yard may have collaborated or otherwise. It could be that because the OP didn't use the yards own, or favoured trades, they didn't make much effort to resolve the situation.
If it was their "people", it seems likely that they would have found a way to avoid the wasted journey.
I was surprised to be advised that I wouldn't be able to have a particular marine engineer work on my engine, because "he doesn't work there [the yard where the boat is]".
I'm going along with this, but it may be that there is some work that I want a particular person to do, and then we will have a chat and see what happens.
I'm expecting that if I've given the home yard a bit of work over the winter, there won't be an issue with getting someone else in for a particular job.
I hadn't realised that the boaty world is run like a scaled down version of Cosa Nostra!
If it was their "people", it seems likely that they would have found a way to avoid the wasted journey.
I was surprised to be advised that I wouldn't be able to have a particular marine engineer work on my engine, because "he doesn't work there [the yard where the boat is]".
I'm going along with this, but it may be that there is some work that I want a particular person to do, and then we will have a chat and see what happens.
I'm expecting that if I've given the home yard a bit of work over the winter, there won't be an issue with getting someone else in for a particular job.
I hadn't realised that the boaty world is run like a scaled down version of Cosa Nostra!
SailingEd
Active Member
well they are threatening court coming for the remaining fees so I need some arbitration service etc to not get the bailiffs knocking on my door etc.
So it’s a kind of stalemate, I’m not paying to then claim it back I’d rather but my point across to them and just wanted advice
For example if I sum up what I’m willing to go for at small claims I.e the £720 + extra yard costs or they could “settle” by waiving the outstanding yard fees (which I feel is an amicable solution based on what happened)
FlyingGoose
Well-Known Member
Just remember you are not suing the yard per sei, they will pass your letter onto their liability insurance, who will deal with it via their solicitors , you will not stress the yard out , this is why they pay their premiums
There solicitors will fight the case and you will either need to gain the employment of a solicitor team of try your luck in the small claims , against a legal team used to making your life hard.
If you lose they will seek expenseses from you which could end up costly.
A. Nice letter pointing out your grievances in a manner that shows your position may be the way to go
There solicitors will fight the case and you will either need to gain the employment of a solicitor team of try your luck in the small claims , against a legal team used to making your life hard.
If you lose they will seek expenseses from you which could end up costly.
A. Nice letter pointing out your grievances in a manner that shows your position may be the way to go
pandos
Well-Known Member
Don't steal your boat back if the yard has possession of it in a situation where you are expected to pay before removing it.
If it is being held captive pay the bill under protest and take the boat out. Or at the very least formally demand the return of the boat.
Just because you suffered a pure economic loss, does not automatically provide you with a basis for a claim/remedy.
As Paul Tainbow pointed out if you haven't paid then you can't really take them to court...! If you have been given your boat back, without paying then you must either settle this or wait for their next move...
If you have not paid and you have the boat why would you write the reasonable letter that sets out your position on a WP basis.?
You must work out if you are the plaintiff or defendant, and act accordingly...
Yards take the piss all of the time, and perhaps you will change this mentality, but I doubt it,
Enough people listen to mumjo jumbo and just accept it and pay up...but there is an upside to this if you can afford to do so, which is; that you have the consolation that in time you can return to those yards and they will be welcoming...
The alternative is to burn bridges and invite stress and costs into the sailing equation...for a sum that is only a fraction of a sailing budget, especially for someone who cannot do their own work...
If it is being held captive pay the bill under protest and take the boat out. Or at the very least formally demand the return of the boat.
Just because you suffered a pure economic loss, does not automatically provide you with a basis for a claim/remedy.
As Paul Tainbow pointed out if you haven't paid then you can't really take them to court...! If you have been given your boat back, without paying then you must either settle this or wait for their next move...
If you have not paid and you have the boat why would you write the reasonable letter that sets out your position on a WP basis.?
You must work out if you are the plaintiff or defendant, and act accordingly...
Yards take the piss all of the time, and perhaps you will change this mentality, but I doubt it,
Enough people listen to mumjo jumbo and just accept it and pay up...but there is an upside to this if you can afford to do so, which is; that you have the consolation that in time you can return to those yards and they will be welcoming...
The alternative is to burn bridges and invite stress and costs into the sailing equation...for a sum that is only a fraction of a sailing budget, especially for someone who cannot do their own work...
steveeasy
Well-Known Member
The OP booked his lift with the yard on a specific day. He was accommodating in this date changing. He requested a simple call back if there was a problem. Not receiving one was unreasonable. A backlog caused by weather was not the OPs fault or interest. The yard should have notified him they were unable to fulfill their part of the agreement on time. The OP has a reasonable defense. It all comes down to the evidence in written communication. The yard are not liable for his loses but equally the yard seam to be acting unreasonable relating to the extended time not taking in to account their own failing to fulfill their part of original agreement.
Steveeasy
Steveeasy
Hallberg-Rassy
Well-Known Member
Why on earth not? And it's not stealing as you can't steal your own property! He'd just be testing his new engine work. Perfectly reasonable. If he tells them in advance, let alone asks them, they're going to refuse and there's going to be conflict.
He pays them, then the onus is on him to get his money back. That's the dumbest response on earth.
The point is to avoid allowing the yard having a hold over his now more valuable asset, and avoiding any conflict.
What's the old saying, "the definition of a fool, is someone who is honest with a dishonest person".
It's a small claim. Plaintiff don't get costs in a small claim. Their lawyer is going to tell them to forget it for the sake of 2.5 hours of a solicitor's time.
The point is to put the boot on the other foot and let them start legal proceedings if, BIG IF, they will. Then counter claim.
They won't because he has too good a case.
Hallberg-Rassy
Well-Known Member
And, Ed, ignore the fear factor. The bailiffs won't be knocking on your door, not now, not in 9 months or 2 years time it might take.
Worst case scenario, you let them take you to court (ie you give them the effort & expense of doing so), you tell the magistrate your side of the story, you show your evidence, the court decides a 50:50 split ... then you offer to pay then £5 a week because you're broke/pensioned/whatever.
And forget about it.
Worst case scenario, you let them take you to court (ie you give them the effort & expense of doing so), you tell the magistrate your side of the story, you show your evidence, the court decides a 50:50 split ... then you offer to pay then £5 a week because you're broke/pensioned/whatever.
And forget about it.
FlyingGoose
Well-Known Member
You are wrong you can steal your own property, although this is a garage scenario with cars a boat yard and boat would fall under the same laws
Quote ,
It is therefore clearly an established point in English law that the ‘owner’ of a vehicle can commit theft if the vehicle is removed from your premises without your permission and without paying for the work you have undertaken.
Small claims are under 1000 the yard could sue for more than this and take it out of small claims and into a higher court, risking more money spent fighting it
steveeasy
Well-Known Member
Not sure the boat yard has done any work on the boat. They provided a service. The OP should remove his boat and pay the original amount agreed . The difference can be disputed. Unless its not the case, the only contract that existed was that originally agreed. They breached it by not fulfilling their part of the bargain. They went further by not notifying him of the situation. Yes the OP could have called. Have they actually stated they have a lien over the boat ending payment. This all comes down to evidence and reasonable behaviour. As for contractors you cant charge fuly for something you never did. completely unreasonable by them however frustrating for them it must have been.
Steveeasy
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Did the boatyard know you had people coming to work on the boat? Did you explicitly tell them that not lifting out on the following day would be a problem? Had the people you booked been cleared to work in the yard?
FlyingGoose
Well-Known Member
They are providing a service, lift out , yard costs,their premises
They are is all respects a garage for boats
They are legally allowed to deny you entry or to take the boat away until all costs are met.
Pay the yard then sue them ,is the only way to avoid the risk of getting a criminal record
Laysula
Well-Known Member
Invite the yard to join you on "Judge Rinder". Then we can all watch and see the yard squirm.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
You cannot take them to court for money you have not paid, ie the balance for the lift out. They can take you to court for not paying them. This doesn't mean that the bailiffs will call around though. You attend the court, tell your side of the story and the court decides if you have to pay and how much. Be aware though, if they take you to court and you "win" by getting the court to award the yard the original amount (£550) the judgement will still be awarded against you. this means you have a County Court judgement against you, which will affect your credit rating.
I would suggest you write to the yard and explain your issues regarding their charges and offer to pay them the balance of the £550. If they refuse to accept, pay them anyway. This way, they will have to take you to court for the balance, i think it highly unlikely they will do this and even more unlikely that they would win the day, in which case, no judgement against you. You could, in your initial letter, say that you want them to waive the rest of the outstanding money, to compensate you for the expense of the contractors fees, but i doubt they'll go for that, you could follow that up with a revised off to pay the balance.
I think you stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting the yard to pay the contractors £720. Personally, i would not have paid them and let them take me to court. I have never, ever, charged a customer because a job has been cancelled or delayed, i think this it totally unacceptable. I would never use these people again, ever.
Edit: Should have said, i would have paid the contractors for the cost incurred for travelling and a reasonable amount to cover the time they would lose getting to another job. It isn't hard to swap a couple of jobs around, i have to do it all the time. Job gets delayed, bring another one forward. An emergency crops up, move a job back a day, it's all about keeping everyone sailing and happy.
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RichardS
N/A
I've used the small claims route many times and often for more than £1000.
Richard
FlyingGoose
Well-Known Member
Apologise you are right it is 10000 not 1000 should have gone to spec saversI've used the small claims route many times and often for more than £1000.
Richard
scottie
Well-Known Member
If the yard attempts to lift in adverse conditions and the boat is damaged or worse someone were injured you would say that they were liable as they should have known better
scottie
Well-Known Member
Why were the external contractors brought in in the first place
Did the contractor pay commission or fees to the yard
Could the the yard have done the work themselves
Was there a competent contractor nearer
These questions may give some background
Did the contractor pay commission or fees to the yard
Could the the yard have done the work themselves
Was there a competent contractor nearer
These questions may give some background
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