Help with boat yard dispute

[Hallberg-Rassy]

In that case yo might want to edit your offensive quote accordingly.

No thanks, it's fine as is.

You actually suggested he rolls over for £550 quid, without securing his position, and appeals to the reason of people who have proven themselves to be unreasonable.

I actually threw up in my mouth a little when I read that much. The CCJ stuff was merely the icing on the pie.

That's like asking a mugger to hold your wallet while you discuss how much they can take off you.

 

[FlyingGoose]

No thanks, it's fine as is.

You actually suggested he rolls over for £550 quid, without securing his position, and appeals to the reason of people who have proven themselves to be unreasonable.

I actually threw up in my mouth a little when I read that much. The CCJ stuff was merely the icing on the pie.

That's like asking a mugger to hold your wallet while you discuss how much they can take off you.

I had to roll over for 300,000 in a court battle , my evidence was so strong but as usual solicitors like to meet up and not go to court, my Queens counsel noted the Judge and took a decision to accept there still generous offer and move on,
Her words , the judge does not want to see a case , they prefer that neogotions take place .
One the day you might get a judge that sees it differently
It seems this is more about principle than money lost and perhaps pride and annoyance.
Like I. Have said before the yard will give it to their liability insurers who will have a law team , who will pursue the debt, they lose nothing , no money no time, their solicitors deal with everything.
And it it goes to CCJ and you lose , they can escalate it to a high court rite. And those bailiffs have serious power

 

[Babylon]

A yard worked on my boat, they took longer than they quoted because they ordered the wrong [...] and after a few friendly visits by me to the office they knocked off £200 as a good will gesture. I was having other work done to the boat, so 200 quid was a drop in the ocean to them. But I kept it friendly light hearted without threats.

This is the ideal outcome when things go wrong. No-one wants to fall out with their yard, nor face the stress of legal action over such relatively paltry sums. But - as per Halberg Rassey's point - one has to remain resolute in the face of unreasonable money-grabbing, else the yards will become used to shafting their customers with impunity.

I was miffed when my own yard - which I've used exclusively since 2008 and would prefer to keep using for the foreseeable future - tried to charge me almost full-whack for storing my boat during the long first lockdown, which had unfortunately cut in a few days before the booked re-launch.

I tried to be reasonable with the office manager, who unfortunately had no real authority as he was under corporate instructions not to be flexible or reasonable, so this was to no avail. Fortunately when I got down to the yard just after the boat was finally back in the water, I bumped into one of the directors who I've known since the day I bought my boat.

I told him in blunt terms that I'd been a loyal customer and had given the yard a huge amount of valuable work over this time, and was prepared to pay "nothing" beyond the original contractual three weeks.

In the end I paid a small and reasonable addition - reflecting their goodwill and mine - and everyone was happy.

But the more corporate a structure, the harder it sometimes is to achieve effective communication.

 

[Tamar]

This is the ideal outcome when things go wrong. No-one wants to fall out with their yard, nor face the stress of legal action over such relatively paltry sums. But - as per Halberg Rassey's point - one has to remain resolute in the face of unreasonable money-grabbing, else the yards will become used to shafting their customers with impunity.

I was miffed when my own yard - which I've used exclusively since 2008 and would prefer to keep using for the foreseeable future - tried to charge me almost full-whack for storing my boat during the long first lockdown, which had unfortunately cut in a few days before the booked re-launch.

I tried to be reasonable with the office manager, who unfortunately had no real authority as he was under corporate instructions not to be flexible or reasonable, so this was to no avail. Fortunately when I got down to the yard just after the boat was finally back in the water, I bumped into one of the directors who I've known since the day I bought my boat.

I told him in blunt terms that I'd been a loyal customer and had given the yard a huge amount of valuable work over this time, and was prepared to pay "nothing" beyond the original contractual three weeks.

In the end I paid a small and reasonable addition - reflecting their goodwill and mine - and everyone was happy.

But the more corporate a structure, the harder it sometimes is to achieve effective communication.

It pays to go to the top sometimes

 

[Blue Sunray]

It's good to see that all that fluffy "Civil Public Discourse" nonsense has gone the way of the Dodo.

 

[NotBirdseye]

What's the problem specifically, I can't see anything that might break the CPD. Nothing defamatory... well as far as calling some ones post twaddle (which I believe is permitted)?

 

[Blue Sunray]

What's the problem specifically, I can't see anything that might break the CPD. Nothing defamatory... well as far as calling some ones post twaddle (which I believe is permitted)?

I don't see any problem. Like I said it's good to get back to the status quo ante and properly robust debate.

see also:

Boating During Lockdown?

 

[PaulRainbow]

No thanks, it's fine as is.

You actually suggested he rolls over for £550 quid, without securing his position, and appeals to the reason of people who have proven themselves to be unreasonable.

I actually threw up in my mouth a little when I read that much. The CCJ stuff was merely the icing on the pie.

That's like asking a mugger to hold your wallet while you discuss how much they can take off you.

More of your obnoxious drivel,

You live in some fantasy World, or at least on here, where keystrokes come cheap.

 

[peter gibbs]

Hi

I’ve not been a boat owner for long so I’m looking for a bit of advice on a recent haul out and I’m disputing the costs so please read the story first then hopefully tell me if I’m in the right or wrong, and what I can do about it.

I’ll leave the yard name out of it for now but here we go.

I booked the boat for a lift out, specific time and date to do so.
i pre paid 20% deposit for the lift and was going to be ashore for 14 days before lifting back in.

i got the boat there on time as arranged but was told due to high winds on previous days there was a bit of a back log but I would be lifted the next day.

no problem I thought as I had only booked the trades in from 2 days later, I said call me if any issues and left the boat with them (Sailboat) no calls and no contact from the yard.

anyway, my first tradesman turns up and the boat is still in the water 2 days later...

the tradesman wants his 6hrs x 2 people labour paying for that day and rightly so I’d booked them but they were unable to do anything and at short notice they couldn’t do other jobs and had travelled specifically to work my boat. (This was to remove the sail drive refurbish it and refit it)

So I’m £720 out of pocket already
Now I was in a predicament to rearrange trades people meaning the boat ended up being out the water for 28days not the 14 booked due to availability so I could actually rearrange the work.

so the final bill from the boatyard is for a lift out and back in, and 28days storage

problem is it’s not my fault they’re incompetent we had a time and date set on a quote for £550 all in, now they want £850 due to the extra days.

the way I see it they should reimburse me for the trades who couldn’t work on the boat or significantly discount the lift out because it wasn’t at the time or date we agreed.

if anyone has had disputes of this kind I’d like to hear as I don’t really know where I stand on this.

if they had told me they couldn’t lift the boat out I could have rearranged, but they didn’t and what’s the point in booking a lift on a set date if they won’t uphold their side of basically a contract? And then charge me extra because I can’t pull mechanics out of a hat with a days notice

there was also a delay in getting the boat back in and I needed the sail drive testing as the diaphragm was changed, the mechanic needed to be present for lift in and again was let down by the yard not sticking to timings and had to return again on another date.

so because they have royally shafted me I’m disputing I don’t pay them anything other than the 20% deposit I’ve already paid after all they never provided the services on the dates I requested ( and booked months in advance!)

I have the original lift out order in writing but other than that it’s just been emailS back and forth and now they’re threatening to take it further due to me refusing to pay. But the way I see if the service was shocking and not what I ordered and I’m out of pocket because of it. Significantly so too!
Help please?
Surly I shouldn’t pay for their incompetence ?

equally I can’t wait until confirmation of the boat coming out before booking in trades most are booked up months in advance! How do people normally deal with this, it’s a huge planning headache!

In situations like this where weather is a factor there are grounds not for blame so much as each side being responsible gor its own costs and losses. In your case you wanted to get the job done quickly to control ashore costs so took a chance on the lift proceeding without hindrance. This was frustrated and no court would ascribe blame to the yard.
The yard is in the position of hiring its facilities on a published tarrif. Whatever time ashore is going to be chargeable to you.
If the yard senses you may never return they may be intractable. So you know what to do - talk it over and ask for some leeway on their charges over and above the original time booked. Put the first payment on the table. They might relent; they won't be out of pocket and wont be bent on taking you for every penny. They won't want the cost of a small claims action - £300 average appearance costs - thats in the balance of their thinking.
Marinas and marine engineers are a cottage industry in many respects and have to be approached on this basis. Had your engineer been struck down when your boat was ashore, the landed cost would have been to your account come what may.

Not a verdict all in your favour I regret but the likely best you will extract.

PWG

 

[Quandary]

Not exactly relevant to the ops case but to correct something stated above; It may be worth noting that while a small claim in England can be up to £10k. in Scotland and Northern Ireland where the legal profession have managed to maintain their control over government the limits are £5k and £3k respectively. The scottish system (modernised around 2016) is still particularly arcane includind a deposit before beginning the launch of a claim.

 

[dunkelly]

i had a similar experience many years ago and decided to take it to court . in a nutshell although the judge slated the company for its behaviour i lost the case and had to pay the full bill , they acted within the law as i am sure your yard did . sorry .

 

[steveeasy]

A contractor would not charge the full charge if they turned up and found the boat in the water. The OP then states they came back later and charged the rate again this time doing the work. It does not make sense, and ive never had anyone other than an airline try that one on. the boat yard took a deposit and failed to do what was agreed on time. they did not notify the OP. I can believe that. Yo must pay for a haul out and storage less some inconvenience. I simply don't believe the contractor bit, if you paid them £770 quid well id explain to them you had sun stroke or something and ask for a refund.
Steveeasy

 

[Blue Sunray]

THe theft part was me ,and under English law a garage has the right to withhold the car until full payment , this law would also apply to a boat yard for any services they have done to the boat.
Also the boat is on private property of the yard,
If the yard asked you to pay your bill or no entry to their yard , then if you enter the yard you are breaking the law.
How is a boat yard diffrent to any workshop or garage ,one cannot just wander in and take your car without payment.
If you have been instructed by said yard not to enter their premises until full paymenT and you do and then take the boat which the yard can legally hold as collateral then it is trespass and theft .
Stop thinking of a yard as a right for you to enter, you are invited onto the yard you have no legal right of entry
My family business owned many garages and large workshops , if anyone was found in the yard , then they got my Uncle then the police

Your usual little knowledge demonstration. Even allowing for the fact that you profess to live in Scotland and the law there is different Maritime Liens are very different from land based ones and ' legal right of entry' is of little relevance, civil trespass not normally being a criminal matter for the police.

Keep posting though we need a good laugh. However, anyone who takes any actions on the basis of anything you post:
a) is daft,
b) deserves what's coming to them.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Instead of bitching at each other, could we just stick to the case at hand.

If the contractors turned up without being informed that the boat was unavailable, they are correctly entitled to lost time and travel, but not to double the costs of the job as if they had done it twice. They are not incompetent unless the OP specifically instructed them in writing or email or other provable means to liaise with the boatyard, in which case its their responsibility but I hope OP could prove they received said communication.

The boatyard if prevented from launching or moving boat by circumstances outside their control are entitled to yard fees for the extension. Unless there is some clause that says they wont - and I doubt there is. The exact fee may well be negotiable as they may wish to retain goodwill. If the OP thinks it too high asking nicely is the first step

 

[FlyingGoose]

Your usual little knowledge demonstration. Even allowing for the fact that you profess to live in Scotland and the law there is different Maritime Liens are very different from land based ones and ' legal right of entry' is of little relevance, civil trespass not normally being a criminal matter for the police.

Keep posting though we need a good laugh. However, anyone take any actions on the basis of anything you post:
a) is daft
b) deserves what's coming to them.

Bitching at each other , relates to two people , there is only one throwing insults, I am posting a point of view and the law
Good to see I am off your ignore list, must be because I have something useful to say
Criminal trespass on commercial land and you have no right to be there
Civil trespass on land like farm land
A boat yard is not covered under maritime law the boat is on land , that is what being on the hard means.
Do not think the coastguard has any jursirication inside a boat yard if there is an accident, incident,
You can try channels 16 if you like , but no one will respond
I personally would phone the police if someone was unothrosed in my yard Which is owned and is a commercial business with it’s millions of pounds of assests,
Why do you not try it on a yard , but tell them Your coming but have no authorisation from their office

 

[WoodyP]

What the contractor has lost is profit. Not their full bill.

 

[PaulRainbow]

What the contractor has lost is profit. Not their full bill.

What the contractor has lost is his travel costs to get to the yard and back to his workshop, plus any time doing so. Let's say i (as a contractor) drove from here to the marina in Ipswich, a 30 minute drive, i would be within my right (IMO) to charge for the hour of driving and my usual mileage charge, plus an hour at the most of wasted time speaking to the boatyard and re-organising some work. £720 is daylight robbery and i would have refused to pay them. As i said before, i have never made any charges for cancelled or delayed jobs, i've always go plenty of jobs i can shuffle around, as any half decent contractor would have.

 

[Seastoke]

If i am traveling to a project, i always confirm they are ready , they must have phoned the yard.

 

[peteK]

As Paul said they should be only charging for there time travelling to the boat and return as the rest of the day they are not working for you and they are just trying it on.

 

[Major_Clanger]

What a horribly litigious country we have become.

Neither party are without blame so forget the notion of legal action. Instead, arrange to sit down with the yard manager over a cup of tea and make a plan. Be friendly, know your position and have square shoulders. You'll probably find he'll respond in a similar fashion and a happy compromise can be arrived at.