Help with boat yard dispute

[SailingEd]

Hi

I’ve not been a boat owner for long so I’m looking for a bit of advice on a recent haul out and I’m disputing the costs so please read the story first then hopefully tell me if I’m in the right or wrong, and what I can do about it.

I’ll leave the yard name out of it for now but here we go.

I booked the boat for a lift out, specific time and date to do so.
i pre paid 20% deposit for the lift and was going to be ashore for 14 days before lifting back in.

i got the boat there on time as arranged but was told due to high winds on previous days there was a bit of a back log but I would be lifted the next day.

no problem I thought as I had only booked the trades in from 2 days later, I said call me if any issues and left the boat with them (Sailboat) no calls and no contact from the yard.

anyway, my first tradesman turns up and the boat is still in the water 2 days later...

the tradesman wants his 6hrs x 2 people labour paying for that day and rightly so I’d booked them but they were unable to do anything and at short notice they couldn’t do other jobs and had travelled specifically to work my boat. (This was to remove the sail drive refurbish it and refit it)

So I’m £720 out of pocket already
Now I was in a predicament to rearrange trades people meaning the boat ended up being out the water for 28days not the 14 booked due to availability so I could actually rearrange the work.

so the final bill from the boatyard is for a lift out and back in, and 28days storage

problem is it’s not my fault they’re incompetent we had a time and date set on a quote for £550 all in, now they want £850 due to the extra days.

the way I see it they should reimburse me for the trades who couldn’t work on the boat or significantly discount the lift out because it wasn’t at the time or date we agreed.

if anyone has had disputes of this kind I’d like to hear as I don’t really know where I stand on this.

if they had told me they couldn’t lift the boat out I could have rearranged, but they didn’t and what’s the point in booking a lift on a set date if they won’t uphold their side of basically a contract? And then charge me extra because I can’t pull mechanics out of a hat with a days notice

there was also a delay in getting the boat back in and I needed the sail drive testing as the diaphragm was changed, the mechanic needed to be present for lift in and again was let down by the yard not sticking to timings and had to return again on another date.

so because they have royally shafted me I’m disputing I don’t pay them anything other than the 20% deposit I’ve already paid after all they never provided the services on the dates I requested ( and booked months in advance!)

I have the original lift out order in writing but other than that it’s just been emailS back and forth and now they’re threatening to take it further due to me refusing to pay. But the way I see if the service was shocking and not what I ordered and I’m out of pocket because of it. Significantly so too!
Help please?
Surly I shouldn’t pay for their incompetence ?

equally I can’t wait until confirmation of the boat coming out before booking in trades most are booked up months in advance! How do people normally deal with this, it’s a huge planning headache!

 

[scottie]

Hi

I’ve not been a boat owner for long so I’m looking for a bit of advice on a recent haul out and I’m disputing the costs so please read the story first then hopefully tell me if I’m in the right or wrong, and what I can do about it.

I’ll leave the yard name out of it for now but here we go.

I booked the boat for a lift out, specific time and date to do so.
i pre paid 20% deposit for the lift and was going to be ashore for 14 days before lifting back in.

i got the boat there on time as arranged but was told due to high winds on previous days there was a bit of a back log but I would be lifted the next day.

no problem I thought as I had only booked the trades in from 2 days later, I said call me if any issues and left the boat with them (Sailboat) no calls and no contact from the yard.

anyway, my first tradesman turns up and the boat is still in the water 2 days later...

the tradesman wants his 6hrs x 2 people labour paying for that day and rightly so I’d booked them but they were unable to do anything and at short notice they couldn’t do other jobs and had travelled specifically to work my boat. (This was to remove the sail drive refurbish it and refit it)

So I’m £720 out of pocket already
Now I was in a predicament to rearrange trades people meaning the boat ended up being out the water for 28days not the 14 booked due to availability so I could actually rearrange the work.

so the final bill from the boatyard is for a lift out and back in, and 28days storage

problem is it’s not my fault they’re incompetent we had a time and date set on a quote for £550 all in, now they want £850 due to the extra days.

the way I see it they should reimburse me for the trades who couldn’t work on the boat or significantly discount the lift out because it wasn’t at the time or date we agreed.

if anyone has had disputes of this kind I’d like to hear as I don’t really know where I stand on this.

if they had told me they couldn’t lift the boat out I could have rearranged, but they didn’t and what’s the point in booking a lift on a set date if they won’t uphold their side of basically a contract? And then charge me extra because I can’t pull mechanics out of a hat with a days notice

there was also a delay in getting the boat back in and I needed the sail drive testing as the diaphragm was changed, the mechanic needed to be present for lift in and again was let down by the yard not sticking to timings and had to return again on another date.

so because they have royally shafted me I’m disputing I don’t pay them anything other than the 20% deposit I’ve already paid after all they never provided the services on the dates I requested ( and booked months in advance!)

I have the original lift out order in writing but other than that it’s just been emailS back and forth and now they’re threatening to take it further due to me refusing to pay. But the way I see if the service was shocking and not what I ordered and I’m out of pocket because of it. Significantly so too!
Help please?
Surly I shouldn’t pay for their incompetence ?

equally I can’t wait until confirmation of the boat coming out before booking in trades most are booked up months in advance! How do people normally deal with this, it’s a huge planning headache!

They may well have T&C that deal with this situation that cover them for any liability but usually talking can lead to a compromise
As you instructed them to advise you and they didn’t you may have some leverage depending on who you instructed

 

[RichardS]

There is no doubt that boat lifting is dependent on the wind so the yard cannot be blamed for that. The fact that this had knock-on costs for you in terms of your tradesmen is not really their fault. I certainly think that if you discuss this with the yard, they will only charge you whatever the original cost was due to be (the County Court will, almost certainly, take the same view) but I'm afraid that the extra trademen's expense you have suffered is going to be impossible to recover.

Sorry.

Richard

 

[Tamar]

It's a tough one, you need to talk with them. Do they know about the tradesmen you booked. Most yards charge you if you bring out side contractors in and don't use use their guys
They can't be blamed for the bad weather.

 

[[70521]]

I never book anybody until the boat is safely out of the water, and do 90% of the work on the boat myself. There are days where yards can't lift.

The last time I was lifted back in the boats in front of me were "not ready" and the yard said they would need to wait until the next set of springs! After a "frank discussion" I was lifted in with about 10 mins of tide to spare! I won't be returning to that location again.

 

[SailingEd]

It's a tough one, you need to talk with them. Do they know about the tradesmen you booked. Most yards charge you if you bring out side contractors in and don't use use their guys
They can't be blamed for the bad weather.

yeah they knew about it, it’s wasn’t bad winds on the day of my lift or the day after, these were 4 days prior to me arriving but they blamed the delay on them due to a back log.

I’d have no problem if they rang me and told me it wasn’t being lifted I could have cancelled the tradesmen, but there’s no valid reason for them not to lift on the day we both agreed upon

I accepted a slight delay of a day with grace to allow them to catch up, but even then 2 days later my boat was still in the water...
If they couldn’t commit to the rescheduled time why offer it? The weather was great from then onwards

any sensible business would say sorry can’t commit to that here’s when we can lift your boat, they know how many lifts are booked in and how long it takes it’s not rocket science. But instead they lied and it’s cause me financial repercussions and on top of that they want more money for extra days storage....

 

[SailingEd]

I never book anybody until the boat is safely out of the water, and do 90% of the work on the boat myself. There are days where yards can't lift.

The last time I was lifted back in the boats in front of me were "not ready" and the yard said they would need to wait until the next set of springs! After a "frank discussion" I was lifted in with about 10 mins of tide to spare! I won't be returning to that location again.

Yeah this was one of them 10% of the time jobs I couldn’t do, I’d already gave myself 3 days from agreed lift out before any trades arrived.

like I said no bad weather when I arrived and the boat was there waiting!

the least they could do is say “sorry it’s been cancelled” so I could rearrange stuff. But the cheek to charge extra days for their error is what I’m disputing not paying.

 

[pcatterall]

allways difficult arranging tradespeople and lift out. The owner should always anticipate that the yard may not be able to do the lift on the day requested due to winds etc.
BUT if you have engaged tradespeople for a certain date and you CLEARLY request the yard to notify you so that you can cancel the tradesfolk and they CLEARLY don't then you would have good grounds for some kind of claim.
Also worth asking the tradespeople about cost of and notice for cancellation.

 

[penberth3]

......problem is it’s not my fault they’re incompetent we had a time and date set on a quote for £550 all in, now they want £850 due to the extra days.

You don't help yourself by using this sort of language. Things go wrong for all sorts of reasons.

 

[SailingEd]

allways difficult arranging tradespeople and lift out. The owner should always anticipate that the yard may not be able to do the lift on the day requested due to winds etc.
BUT if you have engaged tradespeople for a certain date and you CLEARLY request the yard to notify you so that you can cancel the tradesfolk and they CLEARLY don't then you would have good grounds for some kind of claim.
Also worth asking the tradespeople about cost of and notice for cancellation.

yeah I clearly mentioned it and it even states it on the lift out quote form under the owners comments section where I wrote the key dates for trades people and their details and contact information, to approve them access to my keys etc.
I wasn’t given any opportunity to notify tradesmen though that’s the problem.

 

[ashtead]

Welcome to the world of marine suppliers. The concept of time being of the essence is completely unknown to most marina suppliers. By the sounds of it they were aware of tradesmen timing but were they in breach of contract due to late lift or not ? That rather depends on the terms of the contract with the supplier yard . It might be some of the loss is too remote and the contract excludes. I suggest a letter setting out you claim to the yard is the first step and then on basis they deny liability proceed by suggesting on a WP basis once you have their reply a compromise of some sort.

 

[Pete735]

I'm with you SailingEd, they're incompetent. Competence takes many forms one of which is communication. If the details are as you say then their inability to pick up the phone and make a 5 minute telephone call is absolutely incomprehensible. Must admit I would have gone ballistic and I generally think of myself as a reasonable individual. On top of that, I am somewhat surprised by the relaxed view of many others on here if the situation is as you say.

 

[MoodySabre]

A calm and friendly conversation with the boatyard in the hope of a compromise cost is your best bet. Beyond that just put it down to experience.

 

[Boathook]

Is your boat still ashore at the yard? Some yards won't relaunch until payments are made.

 

[Tamar]

Is your boat still ashore at the yard? Some yards won't relaunch until payments are made.

Also known as cash or no splash

 

[pandos]

It's a mess of a situation.

I drive 60 miles each way to a yard that is decent and fair. And from speaking to other boat owners, it is in part the non profiteering, non confrontational attitude that is one of the main attractions

Many things in yards are weather dependent and your tradesmen would have known this and I would have issues with them more than I would have with the yard.

But I would talk to the yard...and explain that you did all that you could and had they been equally diligent then there would not have been a problem and also that they should not take advantage of the situation and should accept a discount on the original quote.

I suspect bringing in outside tradesmen is part of your problem...even if this is not expressed)

Talk of court is not the way to go...yards deal with this kind of thing all of the time and obviously you do not.

Be diplomatic and reasonable in all of your communications, no matter how hard this may be.

It may be that a simple approach to the yard with a bit of humility might go a long way.

Best advice is that you find a yard that you can get along with.. and learn to do all work yourself...

 

[Biggles Wader]

I'm with you SailingEd, they're incompetent. Competence takes many forms one of which is communication. If the details are as you say then their inability to pick up the phone and make a 5 minute telephone call is absolutely incomprehensible. Must admit I would have gone ballistic and I generally think of myself as a reasonable individual. On top of that, I am somewhat surprised by the relaxed view of many others on here if the situation is as you say.

I agree. The initial delay was understandable and reasonable but their failure to inform you of further issues and your subsequent losses are down to them I think.

 

[James_Calvert]

Ask yourself who was responsible for managing the whole process.

Not the boatyard, they had no relationship with the mechanics.

Not the mechanics, they had no relationship with the boatyard.

Yep, it was you.

Now supposing, knowing you had little experience of managing this, you had appointed someone to manage on your behalf. You get a call from them with the story you've related above. I think you'd blame your manager and regard an attempt to excuse himself on the grounds the yard never phoned him as an attempt to blame shift. After all he could have phoned the yard to check progress with the lift out, and knowing the mechanics might charge for a wasted attendance, would have been keen not to incur your wrath thereby, so would have done his best to keep on top of the situation.

So, starting from the position that it's all your fault anyway... what can you do?

Over to the panel again..

 

[pandos]

Ask yourself who was responsible for managing the whole process.

Not the boatyard, they had no relationship with the mechanics.

Not the mechanics, they had no relationship with the boatyard.

Yep, it was you.

Now supposing, knowing you had little experience of managing this, you had appointed someone to manage on your behalf. You get a call from them with the story you've related above. I think you'd blame your manager and regard an attempt to excuse himself on the grounds the yard never phoned him as an attempt to blame shift. After all he could have phoned the yard to check progress with the lift out, and knowing the mechanics might charge for a wasted attendance, would have been keen not to incur your wrath thereby, so would have done his best to keep on top of the situation.

So, starting from the position that it's all your fault anyway... what can you do?

Over to the panel again..

A bit unfair. The yard and the tradespeople are professionals dealing with an amateur consumer... and they all knew this.

The very least he was entitled to was a bit of fairness.

Even a bit if courtesy would have saved a lot of harm, his mistake was expecting too high a level of professionalism.

He asked for help with what to do next...

 

[ashtead]

Sadly the OP has little experience of yards however he did make the dependencies clear to them but my suspicion is they will deny liability and do little to address as they don’t really need his repeat business maybe .