Hanse320/325 vs older boat

[Daydream believer]

The Op ( like a number of those posting) does not give any details ,such as where he is based, on his profile. It would be nice to know if he is in the vicinity. Someone might offer a sail in a Hanse ,or boat of the type he might be looking for. It could save a lot of time in the hunt if he can delete, or definitely prioritise a boat to the list

 

[Tranona]

The Op ( like a number of those posting) does not give any details ,such as where he is based, on his profile. It would be nice to know if he is in the vicinity. Someone might offer a sail in a Hanse ,or boat of the type he might be looking for. It could save a lot of time in the hunt if he can delete, or definitely prioritise a boat to the list

First sentence of his first post gives it away - why not offer him a go in your boat, even if not quite the same as the ones he was asking about.

Last time I showed a forum member my boat thinking of switching from a MOBO he bought a very nice Legend and the one before who had a couple of good trips with me also bought a more modest Hunter Legend.

 

[Concerto]

I absolutely do not want to start a thread about the debate I've seen ranging on this, and other, forums, i.e. - older, generally heavier boats (Moody, Westerly) vs new European boats
Not Brilliantly! However - wow! - Thanks for all posts from everybody - really helpful stuff, and I'm constantly amazed at the willingness of people on this forum to spend the time giving the benefit of their experience - also impressed that a single question about boat choices can lead to such a variety of response - the debate/info on SA/Disp was genuinely an unexpected bonus.

Much to chew over - and thanks for all the ideas - its possible that the basic conceptual question (old vs new) may be answered by the state of the market- its seems like a buying frenzy this year so prices are shall we say, 'healthy' - so tempting to wait another year - however, life is too short, so I'm going to start actually viewing some boats (physically instead of via my laptop) and see what works in the flesh for me and the family (one thing everybody does seem to agree on is that the right boat is ultimately a heart decision not a head one...)

So thanks all once again - I'll post what I end up with - then in a few years time I look forward to also being able to post about how my boat is simply just the best thing ever, while all others are too light/heavy/flimsy/worn out/lacking headroom/tender/slow/cheap looking/cramped/no good in a blow/crap in light airs etc etc etc!!!!

Until you look over a variety of boats will you be able to start making sensible decisions. You will find some odd layout boats, some dirty boats, and possibly the odd good one. Do not rush your purchase, try and find a boat that suits your needs, in a condition you like, and at a price you can afford. It is better to miss a boat as you are not quite sure about rather than to regret your purchase and within a few years decide to change to what you really want but did not realise at the time. Some factors will be high on your list and for me it is always about the sailing qualities rather than the accomodation. The more complex the boat is, the more likely something will go wrong. For example, the modern concept of electronic connectivity sounds great, but there are advantages to stand alone units especially when the instruments stop talking to each other.

If any boat is in the water, try and make it move by moving from one side deck to the other and back a number of times. You will soon feel how every boat feels different.

Please note I am not trying to influence your decision by my own choice. You may find going to a marina and just talking to some owners about their boats will enlighten you more. There are plenty of people on the forum who would probably be able to show their own boats, even though they are not for sale. I have shown my own boat to potential purchasers of the same class, some have even been out for a sail, and I have also advised 4 buyers on exactly which boat they should buy from the ones for sale at the time.

Have fun looking.

 

[bitbaltic]

I had a Moody 31 for 8 years and now have Beneteau 343 and 3 years into ownership.

Im afraid the Beneteau beats the Moody in everything. Better made (yes you did read that correctly), little to no maintenance, sails like its on a track unlike the Moody which would shoot off in the wrong direction the second you took your hand off the tiller, doesn't slam much, none of the weather helm that I found particularly bad on the bilge keel Moody, stern does not slap anywhere near as much as the Moody31mk11 and the missus loves the clean modern interior.
Don't get me wrong it may seem like im knocking the Moody Im not, the Moody was a fine boat but anyone that thinks the modern euro boats are not as good are either jealous, deluded, listening to much to the old salts at the boat club telling you they will fall apart on the first wave you hit or have not had ago on one. Buy the Hanse.

issues around shooting off in the wrong direction and weather helm might be related if the moody had 20+ year Dacron sails and your beneteau sports say five year old cruise lam.

were/are the wardrobes comparable in condition, cut and manufacture?

 

[bitbaltic]

First sentence of his first post gives it away - why not offer him a go in your boat, even if not quite the same as the ones he was asking about.

if he has a crack in my Hanse he will definitely see the marque quite differently

 

[doug748]

Much to chew over - and thanks for all the ideas - its possible that the basic conceptual question (old vs new) may be answered by the state of the market- its seems like a buying frenzy this year so prices are shall we say, 'healthy' - so tempting to wait another year - however, life is too short, so I'm going to start actually viewing some boats (physically instead of via my laptop) and see what works in the flesh for me and the family (one thing everybody does seem to agree on is that the right boat is ultimately a heart decision not a head one...)

So thanks all once again - I'll post what I end up with - then in a few years time I look forward to also being able to post about how my boat is simply just the best thing ever, while all others are too light/heavy/flimsy/worn out/lacking headroom/tender/slow/cheap looking/cramped/no good in a blow/crap in light airs etc etc etc!!!!

I think you are right about the state of the market, things might start to loosen up through next winter. As you say, look at as many as you can, the good ones will sing out to you but the figures do matter as well.

You have probably binned the idea of the Hanse, in your first post, as an alternative to the more conservative style of older cruising boat. It's heavy, does not carry much ballast and makes up for it with an overly deep keel cast iron keel and net snagging torpedo. Not a great longer distance cruising combination though could well be a fine boat in it's element. I note Yachting Monthly had it pegged as a weekender/ coastal hopper.

Everyone owns the "best boat" it's an obvious truism, for else you would have bought something else. This is lost on some unsophisticated minds we all need to remember: "I have the best boat......For Me".

Good luck in finding yours.

.

 

[bitbaltic]

The OP gives his requirements as a) sailing with family, b) sailing with friends and c) sailing on his own. From experience, I will say that b) will never really happen and c) will be undermined by commitments to a) so a), family sailing, is what he should buy the boat for.

when I bought my boat sailing with enthusiastic crew was the option I considered most likely and singlehanding not really on the horizon. Then I promptly got a family- and a fast, smallish cruiser/racer slowly has become less than ideal.

for family sailing buy a big and modern boat. I’m not sure I’d be drawn to the 32 ft Hanses as I don’t think there’s much between them and the rest of the benjenbav market.

a moody S31 is a compromise but there’s only one on the market. In fact the market is so crazy right now it’s not a great time to buy a long term boat at all.

 

[ashtead]

I suspect the OP is on a journey of discovery. You start looking at older boats like Moody S types say which are the more modern version of the UK ones and compares the price of these second hand Moody with a much new Hanse say. It’s the journey we went on when buying our Bavaria 34 in 2001 but I’m sure the same applies to Hanse and other newer makes. It’s all down to what you are looking for but if you like a self tacking headsail, modern nav instruments , new if somewhat uninspiring sails, heating, hot water, sail drive and bowthruster (yes even on a small Hanse) then say a 5 year old version will be attractive. If you enjoying tinkering and fixing an older Moody might be for you. It’s the same at any price point -do you buy an old Hallberg 40 something when moving on or a new boat, assuming you want a new version then choice is actually quite limited.

 

[bitbaltic]

I don’t know why people are held up on the Hanse self tacker. That is one feature my 301 does actually share with the later J/V boats. In light airs (say up to a 4) where the 301 is at its best and where most of us choose to sail anyway, the ST jib is underpowered because it is too small and with too poor a sheeting angle to extract maximum performance from the boat. This is especially the case downwind- the 301 is not a great performer downwind anyhow under white sails- and on every point of sail the boat gives up performance to have a self tacker.

when I bought a new wardrobe some years ago from Peter Sanders I raised these reservations and he declared himself ‘cool’ on the ST headsail for the same reasons. So I have (and only ever use) a 110% Genoa made by Peter. This does not much improve the downwind performance of the boat but gives full power with wind on the beam or forward, and it is in no way difficult to handle in family sailing conditions or singlehanded.

in stronger winds (f6 or above) I have occasionally set the furled Genoa on the self tacker and it’s performance there is OK because at that point the balance of the boat is dictated by how much main you have out; the 301 really needs to be on reef 2 in a 6 and above that deep reefed for comfort.

 

[ashtead]

I guess the attraction of the ST depends on where you sail and with what crew without wishing to dismiss expert sailmakers views . Personally I found it a real revelation on a larger boat but we have a larger headsail as well, I guess if downwind is a key point of sailing then a chute on a Karver furler is the way to go if a concern and Peter can fix you up with a lovely example no doubt.

 

[bitbaltic]

I guess the attraction of the ST depends on where you sail and with what crew without wishing to dismiss expert sailmakers views . Personally I found it a real revelation on a larger boat but we have a larger headsail as well, I guess if downwind is a key point of sailing then a chute on a Karver furler is the way to go if a concern and Peter can fix you up with a lovely example no doubt.

you’re never downwind in the Bristol Channel

the boat would perform fantastically downwind with a furling assymetric (which would come from Peter of course)- it’s been on the list for years but usage and the return on the investment has held it back now we mostly do short family cruising.

 

[matt1]

One thing to consider, irrespective of brands, is that wheels have become common place on much smaller boats in the last decade or so. I won't get into the sailing benefits or otherwise, but what oppened my eyes moving from tiller to wheel was the abiity to quickly activate the below decks mounted pilot at the flick of a switch (together with a modern 9 axis pilot's ability to steer reliably). This has made any sailing, but especially short handed sailing, so much easier than wedging a tiller between your legs whilst cliping the tiller pilot in place. Getting the fenders in? Raising the main? Trimming? Making lunch? Reefing? all are easy now ;-) This and leading the lines to the helm stations is why my 10 ton 40' boat is so much easier to sail than my 4.5 ton 31'

 

[bitbaltic]

One thing to consider, irrespective of brands, is that wheels have become common place on much smaller boats in the last decade or so. I won't get into the sailing benefits or otherwise, but what oppened my eyes moving from tiller to wheel was the abiity to quickly activate the below decks mounted pilot at the flick of a switch (together with a modern 9 axis pilot's ability to steer reliably). This has made any sailing, but especially short handed sailing, so much easier than wedging a tiller between your legs whilst cliping the tiller pilot in place. Getting the fenders in? Raising the main? Trimming? Making lunch? Reefing? all are easy now ;-) This and leading the lines to the helm stations is why my 10 ton 40' boat is so much easier to sail than my 4.5 ton 31'

all those are good reasons but personally I prefer a wheel when helming into a rough sea simply because you’re standing braced against the direction the sea comes from when going to windward. In a modern boat with a tiller you’re always off-centre to the waves and, in really big seas, I find it less confidence-inspiring.

thinking about it though, the times when I’ve gone downwind in big seas have been with tiller steered boats, and each time I remember it as quite comfortable.

 

[ashtead]

We have a lovely chute with what I call a spiqueezer but a US make from Peter - it sadly sits in a locker under a bunk but have never got my head around making the investment in a Karver type furler so far mainly as we manage fairly well with the Genoa. As said wheels are advantageous -far easier to motor backwards with on a modern boat facing astern as well . The only thing I would advise is to have the throttle on the binnacle not down by ankles if possible .

 

[roblpm]

I had a Moody 31 for 8 years and now have Beneteau 343 and 3 years into ownership.

Im afraid the Beneteau beats the Moody in everything. Better made (yes you did read that correctly), little to no maintenance, sails like its on a track unlike the Moody which would shoot off in the wrong direction the second you took your hand off the tiller, doesn't slam much, none of the weather helm that I found particularly bad on the bilge keel Moody, stern does not slap anywhere near as much as the Moody31mk11 and the missus loves the clean modern interior.
Don't get me wrong it may seem like im knocking the Moody Im not, the Moody was a fine boat but anyone that thinks the modern euro boats are not as good are either jealous, deluded, listening to much to the old salts at the boat club telling you they will fall apart on the first wave you hit or have not had ago on one. Buy the Hanse.

It's interesting that on the stability list I have that the 343 is an outlier to the other oceanis. Stix 34 and avs of 134. What's the difference?! More stable somehow?

 

[johnalison]

all those are good reasons but personally I prefer a wheel when helming into a rough sea simply because you’re standing braced against the direction the sea comes from when going to windward. In a modern boat with a tiller you’re always off-centre to the waves and, in really big seas, I find it less confidence-inspiring.

thinking about it though, the times when I’ve gone downwind in big seas have been with tiller steered boats, and each time I remember it as quite comfortable.

My feelings are the reverse of yours and I wouldn't consider standing for anything more than a short hop of twenty minutes or so. I had a wheel for one of my four boats. Although it was OK to windward, I find a tiller more natural, with the advantage that you are almost entirely using flexor muscles in the arm, which are stronger and less tiring. Off the wind is where I think that a wheel does better especially as I get crick in the neck when helming off-wind for more than a few hours. You also have the advantage that you can't be frightened by large waves coming from astern. A tiller gives you a bigger cockpit table.

 

[Tranona]

I don’t know why people are held up on the Hanse self tacker. That is one feature my 301 does actually share with the later J/V boats. In light airs (say up to a 4) where the 301 is at its best and where most of us choose to sail anyway, the ST jib is underpowered because it is too small and with too poor a sheeting angle to extract maximum performance from the boat. This is especially the case downwind- the 301 is not a great performer downwind anyhow under white sails- and on every point of sail the boat gives up performance to have a self tacker.

when I bought a new wardrobe some years ago from Peter Sanders I raised these reservations and he declared himself ‘cool’ on the ST headsail for the same reasons. So I have (and only ever use) a 110% Genoa made by Peter. This does not much improve the downwind performance of the boat but gives full power with wind on the beam or forward, and it is in no way difficult to handle in family sailing conditions or singlehanded.

That is exactly the debate I had with myself when choosing between the 325 and the Bavaria, particularly with the priority of easy single handing. The Farr designs of Bavarias changed the balance of the sailplan in favour of bigger mains and the mast further aft with 106% jib. This really pays off in practice as I can tack up and down Poole Harbour easily on my own standing at the wheel with the sheet winches an arms length from the wheel and the mainsheet in front of the binnacle. Less of a loss off wind compared with a self tacker and I do have a cruising chute on a top down furler which I can use when out of the confines of the harbour.

 

[Concerto]

anyone that thinks the modern euro boats are not as good are either jealous, deluded, listening to much to the old salts at the boat club telling you they will fall apart on the first wave you hit or have not had ago on one.

If you ran aground on to a hard shore, I bet you would immediately check for any damage and quite likely get your boat lifted as well. This is something that can occur quite frequently, but I bet your modern design will sustain some damage. These boats are designed to float in water, not to come into contact with the seabed especially at any speed.

Yes, I could be considered old school as I now sail a 40 year old Westerly Fulmar, but in the past I also bought new one of the first Kevlar reinforced production race boats made in the UK. Taking the boat on the plane was great fun but very noisy due to the lightweight hull vibrating between the stiffening ribs aft of the keel. It was a great boat for an expert crew to sail, but not for the inexperienced. Maybe having sailed since 1965, I have seen plenty of changes in yachts, but they have in my opinion become too much about the floating caravan options rather than the sailing qualities. Ever heard of a good sea berth? One that you can securely sleep in whilst the boat is being sailed, a big island double berth is useless. Yachts used to have a quarter berth or pilot berth, virtually unknown in a modern boat. Oh, just for what it’s worth I also own a mobile home, so I really do know about caravans (even though mine does not float). That is built to a just adequately strongly standard, but the accommodation is wonderful - even more spacious than a modern yacht.

 

[Tranona]

If you ran aground on to a hard shore, I bet you would immediately check for any damage and quite likely get your boat lifted as well. This is something that can occur quite frequently, but I bet your modern design will sustain some damage. These boats are designed to float in water, not to come into contact with the seabed especially at any speed.

Yes, I could be considered old school as I now sail a 40 year old Westerly Fulmar, but in the past I also bought new one of the first Kevlar reinforced production race boats made in the UK. Taking the boat on the plane was great fun but very noisy due to the lightweight hull vibrating between the stiffening ribs aft of the keel. It was a great boat for an expert crew to sail, but not for the inexperienced. Maybe having sailed since 1965, I have seen plenty of changes in yachts, but they have in my opinion become too much about the floating caravan options rather than the sailing qualities. Ever heard of a good sea berth? One that you can securely sleep in whilst the boat is being sailed, a big island double berth is useless. Yachts used to have a quarter berth or pilot berth, virtually unknown in a modern boat. Oh, just for what it’s worth I also own a mobile home, so I really do know about caravans (even though mine does not float). That is built to a just adequately strongly standard, but the accommodation is wonderful - even more spacious than a modern yacht.

Really? The vast majority of boats (old or new) NEVER hit the bottom. Of those that do (usually through racing or incompetence) damage is not limited to "modern" boats as anybody that has been around Solent yards over the last 40 or 50 years will tell you.

As for sea berths and all that - people buy boats that reflect their their needs and the vast majority of family cruisers rarely sail on passages long enough such that "sea berths" become an overriding priority. Anyway my very modern boat has at least 2 potentially very good seaberths and my last one (also a Bavaria) had 3 which worked well on a long passage across the Med. Pilot berths and tunnel like quarter berths were features of their times for 2 reasons, firstly boats were designed primarily for racing and passage making secondly their shape made those solutions the best compromise. However look at many of them now and you find the pilot berths converted to stowage and quarter berths stuffed with "stuff" reflecting changes in usage of boats. As for double berths and all that I wonder how all those people who deliberately buy boats like big Moodys, Westerlys, Oysters, HRs, Bavaria Oceans etc and sail off round the world often at sea for weeks on end manage.

You really seem to be getting desperate to find reasons for why you prefer your type of boat while ignoring the fact that other people are quite capable of working out for themselves the pros and cons of different types of boats and then choosing a boat that meets their requirements. Do you really think that pvb and myself (given you specifically state we both clash with you), both of whom are long term owners of old style boats did not consider all the alternatives before spending large sums of money on a discretionary purchase - that is non essential so only has to meet our needs?

 

[pvb]

Really? The vast majority of boats (old or new) NEVER hit the bottom. Of those that do (usually through racing or incompetence) damage is not limited to "modern" boats as anybody that has been around Solent yards over the last 40 or 50 years will tell you.

Very true! I find it odd that Concerto (an obvious Westerly fan) should dare to suggest keel vulnerability on modern boats. He only has to look at the poor record of Westerly keels, many of which came loose (usually without even hitting anything) and required extensive remedial work to strengthen the internal structure. Griffons, Pageants, Centaurs, GK24s, GK29s, Berwicks, Pentlands, to name just a few of the models with problems. With adequate structural reinforcement, these boats can be made sound, but it's not a cheap job and it should have happened in the factory to start with.