GPS anxiety

[Fire99]

I rarely do it especially whilst I'm currently in MOBO land but I think it's good practice to keep basic paper charts and some log entries to give you some hope of navigating without the GPS. I was chatting about this kinda thing the other day and for me most safety procedures and checks etc are for the benefit of having a more relaxed passage. The likelihood of all my GPS devices not working is pretty slim but knowing IF something bizarre happens (which with boats, the most unlikely does seem to occasionally happen) I'm prepared. It's nice (within reason) to have all the boxes ticked for possible eventualities. It also to be honest stops a chunk of my Yachtmaster becoming wasted so I don't forget what I learnt with paper chart navigating. Just my thoughts..

 

[Chiara’s slave]

But that is even worse from a navigation perspective. If tomorrow north became south, we could just swap everything over. If it takes many years it could be chaos, and we don't know for sure whether the change will be predictable since we've never seen it happening before!

I shouldn’t worry about it, you’ll be dead.

 

[lydiamight]

I remember doing my Coastal kipper practical---the instructor/examiner explained that the boat was well equipped with radar and GPs and he would fail us if we didn't use them. He also explained that he could, at any time, turn everything off, and if we couldn't cope with that then it would also be a fail. A great lesson in making sure that you knew how to navigate without modern electronics and the importance of keeping an accurate log.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I remember doing my Coastal kipper practical---the instructor/examiner explained that the boat was well equipped with radar and GPs and he would fail us if we didn't use them. He also explained that he could, at any time, turn everything off, and if we couldn't cope with that then it would also be a fail. A great lesson in making sure that you knew how to navigate without modern electronics and the importance of keeping an accurate log.

Did he not expect you to know what to do after a failure of GNSS, on board electricals and an inversion of the Earth’s magnetic field, whilst in wind over tine in the Portland Race? Shame on him. In any case, the answer is simple. Face aft and salute.

 

[lustyd]

Did he not expect you to know what to do after a failure of GNSS, on board electricals and an inversion of the Earth’s magnetic field, whilst in wind over tine in the Portland Race? Shame on him. In any case, the answer is simple. Face aft and salute.

To be fair, if you're in the Portland race you're in a great spot as position is obvious!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

To be fair, if you're in the Portland race you're in a great spot as position is obvious!

A good point. At least you know you’re up sh1t creek

 

[Refueler]

Would a pole swap not be predicted, or at any rate, be preceeded by a period of instability that raised the possibility? And assuming that it didn’t coincide with an outage of GNSS, for me it would just make reacting to wind shifts when racing harder. Cruising, my magnetic compass is a backup, not primary nav. We’d have to rely on GPS for our heading. The only reason I have a heading sensor is to improve wind data.

My latest boat - has 10 deg difference between the two cockpit bulkhead compasses ..... basically because previous owner stuck the Garmin MFD right under the stbd one !! It raises the question of creating Deviation Card !!

Should be interesting sorting it !!

 

[Refueler]

Did he not expect you to know what to do after a failure of GNSS, on board electricals and an inversion of the Earth’s magnetic field, whilst in wind over tine in the Portland Race? Shame on him. In any case, the answer is simple. Face aft and salute.

Head between knees ... kiss a*** goodbye !! as they say !!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My latest boat - has 10 deg difference between the two cockpit bulkhead compasses ..... basically because previous owner stuck the Garmin MFD right under the stbd one !! It raises the question of creating Deviation Card !!

Should be interesting sorting it !!

I see the nature of the problem. Blanking one off is going to be difficult. Our mag compass is underneath the companionway. It keeps it clear of all the lumpy stuff, but if I used it for racing it would never do, too difficult to read, so I don’t recommend that, even if you have the space.

 

[Refueler]

I see the nature of the problem. Blanking one off is going to be difficult. Our mag compass is underneath the companionway. It keeps it clear of all the lumpy stuff, but if I used it for racing it would never do, too difficult to read, so I don’t recommend that, even if you have the space.

TBH - I only use them as indicators of wandering of course .... once I get on course ... I just note what one compass says and use that ... accepting the number difference ... as all I'm interested in really - is if it shows me turning left or right ...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

TBH - I only use the as indicators of wandering of course .... once I get on course ... I just note what one compass says and use that ... accepting the number difference ... as all I'm interested in really - is if it shows me turning left or right ...

I see. Cleary, you don’t have to worry about a 5 deg wind shift leaving you looking stupid. Due to lack of visibility, we put the heading sensor on half the MFD screen when going to windward or leeward, racing. You will be tacking downwind on the shifts too.

 

[Refueler]

I see. Cleary, you don’t have to worry about a 5 deg wind shift leaving you looking stupid. Due to lack of visibility, we put the heading sensor on half the MFD screen when going to windward or leeward, racing. You will be tacking downwind on the shifts too.

As I mentioned to you - these sort of things will be looked at as season starts up ...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

As I mentioned to you - these sort of things will be looked at as season starts up ...

Indeed. We bought the heading sensor primarily to give us better wind data, but as a side hustle, it’s the steering compass when we need it. It’s the Garmin Steadycast. Pretty good, for the money. £160 for +/- 3 deg. £899 for +/- 2 deg. Easy maths…

 

[Refueler]

I may go for a Fluxgate later ... if I feel generous !!

 

[bergie]

This was hitting the news today:

 

[PeterWright]

Whilst it’s possible you may lose the gps signal and therefore your position data, you will still have the charts available on your MFD/plotter so no pressing need to carry paper charts albeit paper charts are easier to use than a digital on screen version.

I think that's rather optimistic. If the power supply board in your plotter or MFD fails you will get the same screen display as when it's tiurned off. I don't believe the instruments sold to us leisure boaters , or even to commercial shipping use espeuially high reliability power supplies, so that's a failure rate just like any other commercial electronic deviceand probably at least an order of magnitude higher than the failure rate of a paper chart.

We still carry paper charts and are happy that commercial shipping is obliged to do so, although we don't carry so many detailed charts of our intended cruising ground as we did before electronic navigation. We also record a position, taken from the GPS approximately hourly, so, if everything goes blank we can put a reasonable position on a paper chart.

Like others, I don't regard this as anxiety, it's just good practiice based on a reasonable assessment of the risks.

Peter.

 

[st599]

commercial shipping use espeuially high reliability power supplies

We still carry paper charts and are happy that commercial shipping is obliged to do so,

Commercial shipping isn't obliged to carry paper charts, since 2011 larger vessels are obliged to run an ECDIS system with dual, redundant power supplies and dual, redundant GNSS.

That's the issue. Current leisure chartplotters don't meet regulations for navigation, but without the big commercial players buying, producing paper charts is uneconomic and UKHO were going to pull production.

https://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/Pages/ElectronicCharts.aspx
The UKHO supports digital solutions for non-ECDIS navigation | ADMIRALTY

 

[Refueler]

Commercial shipping isn't obliged to carry paper charts, since 2011 larger vessels are obliged to run an ECDIS system with dual, redundant power supplies and dual, redundant GNSS.

That's the issue. Current leisure chartplotters don't meet regulations for navigation, but without the big commercial players buying, producing paper charts is uneconomic and UKHO were going to pull production.

https://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/Pages/ElectronicCharts.aspx
The UKHO supports digital solutions for non-ECDIS navigation | ADMIRALTY

Think you need to check that more carefully.

I am in the commercial shipping business and its NOT as simple as you post.

Most ships STILL carry paper charts .. as well as those with Dual ECDIS systems ...............

IMO is a commonly misunderstood organisation who has no real power. They rely on National bodies to implement their 'resolutions' ... often becoming subject of 'ratification' .... and the usual body who stalls .... across the 'pond' !!

 

[requiem]

IMO is a commonly misunderstood organisation who has no real power. They rely on National bodies to implement their 'resolutions' ... often becoming subject of 'ratification' .... and the usual body who stalls .... across the 'pond' !!

Eh, in this case that body across the pond is a bit more ahead of things, as they already allow for ECS use in many cases where ECDIS would be impractical. And as for chart sales...


I'm not surprised that paper is still carried; I don't mind having some small-scale paper at hand and it does serve as one more resource should things go pear-shaped. There's also a decent number of vessels still obligated by circumstance to run paper.

 

[Refueler]

Eh, in this case that body across the pond is a bit more ahead of things, as they already allow for ECS use in many cases where ECDIS would be impractical. And as for chart sales...
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I'm not surprised that paper is still carried; I don't mind having some small-scale paper at hand and it does serve as one more resource should things go pear-shaped. There's also a decent number of vessels still obligated by circumstance to run paper.

the US has a record of delaying implementation of various - the most scandalous was the ColRegs in the 70's .....also the IALA bouyage system ....

Rant over !!