Game Changing 42 ft Flybridge Concept? Opinions appreciated!

[prv]

We have three dedicated sleeping cabins and I can say that even with two loos, two saloons and a huge outdoor deck five people for more than a night is really, really ample! 8 people for a Saturday night is maybe fun, it's going to do your head in for a week on a 40 foot monohull.

+1

As students on a cheap midweek charter we used to cram eight or ten onto a medium-sized sailing boat to push the per-person price down, but I can't imagine anyone who can actually afford their own boat wanting to do the same. Maybe I'm just anti-social?

It sounds a bit like a Norfolk Broads / French Canals charter caravan - they pack 'em in on those things

Pete

 

[Hugin]

the access from the bow to the cabins is imho just a design exercise, aimed at a problem that doesn't exist.

I have given this a lot of thought..... and I am convinced this is the crucial feature enabling the bow to be integrated as an attractive and much used entertaining area. Without a convenient and safe access route to the bow you can add all kinds of bells and whistles up there....... it just wont be used. The usual access route from the aft cockpit, along a long, narrow sidewalk, hand railings just above knee height and hands occupied - carrying a tray of tee mugs and sponge cakes - just doesn't work. It never did and never will. The bow will remain wasted and mostly forgotten acreage.

When the boat is moving at anything above displacement speed it even involves a risk. Children and older people would have to wear life-jackets just to move to and from the bow cockpit and maybe ask for the speed to be reduced while they move. Parents would be on high alert while their 4-8 year olds are virtually "hanging" on the side of the boat, moving to or from the bow.... even when the boat is anchoring. I know, because I have experienced it. A safe and convenient access route makes the entire difference.

If you think about it...... what better place could there be to enjoy the sea-view and catch some rays? Yet, in my experience the bow is hardly ever used. The cushioned sun pads on the "forward bulge" is a vain attempt to bring life to a dead zone. It doesn't work because the sun pads - or even the occasional bench seats - are mostly an afterthought and the access route sucks.

But the first thing I couldn't help thinking, after reading points 3, 4 and 5, is that their practical implementation is bound to look seriously ugly, on a 12m boat. And your further explanations in post #8 only strengthened such impression.

As I indicated in my reply to Deleted User I expect the outer envelope of the boat to be roughly similar to a Prestige 420 as it "packs" more or less the same "layers". The most visible difference will be on the flybridge, where you can expect some kind of (reasonably eye-pleasing) integrated frame structure in lieu of the common bimini top. Bimini tops usually don't add positively to a boat design anyway.

 

[Tranona]

Depends on what the boat is being used for. My 37' charter boat was licenced for 8 and often had that many on board for a week's charter. However the boat was primarily a platform for enjoying the scenery and most people ate out and only used the boat for sunbathing or sleeping. tolerable, particularly if some of the 8 are children. not the sort of thing adults used to space in hotels or apartments would be likely to tolerate for any period of time.

The OPs proposal sounds very much like a MOBO version of the Dufour Attol 40' charter boats which had similar aims in its accommodation layout. Not aimed at the private market but only on lease to charter operators. It bombed. Rather like this proposal, a solution waiting for a problem.

 

[Hugin]

The OPs proposal sounds very much like a MOBO version of the Dufour Attol 40' charter boats which had similar aims in its accommodation layout. Not aimed at the private market but only on lease to charter operators. It bombed.

Of course it did; the concept is ridicules. How it ever progressed beyond the first back-of-a-napkin drawing is really beyond me..... and comparing it to what we suggest is frankly a bit ridicules too.

There is not a single indoor seat or bench anywhere on this boat. Not a single!!
The 4 cabins are incredibly claustrophobic; floor area something like 70x60 cm in the 2 aft cabins; slightly more in the forward cabins. One small hanging locker per cabin, that's it.
The 2 forward cabins in reality have no privacy. You have just a thin partition in the full length of the bed/cabin. Not acceptable if privacy is a priority.
A complete wheelhouse-style superstructure has been added just to provide a roof over the galley. There is nothing else in there. Still no seats or benches!
The only area offering cushioned seats on this boat is the aft cockpit. The entire crew is more or less forced to spend all day and evening hours squeezed together on two L-shaped benches in the aft cockpit. WTF?

I am rather shocked this idea could ever progress to any kind of production, however limited it may have been. Someone with decision-power must truly have lost their mind.

 

[Whitelighter]

With your bow stairs route to the foredeck, why not eliminate side decks all together and push the saloon out to the full width of the boat?

This would give you a space advantage, FB space advantage - as per your point above many people (my wife) feel
Uneasy on the side decks of even 50ft boats. My Ferretti has very good decks but they are still on the tight side and you feel exposed.

I'm not sure I'll like everyinthing you propose, but I support your idea to innovate and change. Let's face it apart from space sucking mid owners cabins and a galley at the back or mid ships mobi design has remained pretty much static for 30 years.

 

[Colvic Watson]

With your bow stairs route to the foredeck, why not eliminate side decks all together and push the saloon out to the full width of the boat?

This would give you a space advantage, FB space advantage - as per your point above many people (my wife) feel
Uneasy on the side decks of even 50ft boats. My Ferretti has very good decks but they are still on the tight side and you feel exposed.

I'm not sure I'll like everyinthing you propose, but I support your idea to innovate and change. Let's face it apart from space sucking mid owners cabins and a galley at the back or mid ships mobi design has remained pretty much static for 30 years.

Cracking idea, much better than wasting those side decks. I like the idea of the bow access, we have easy and safe access to the bow sections and use the bow more than anywhere on passages, 1.3m high teak handrail and bulwarks may not look so cool on a planning mobo though

 

[Nick_H]

Bow sunpads obviously have a couple of advantages, firstly they don't impact on headroom in the cabin below, and secondly, by their nature, they don't need sun protection.

If you plan to use the bow area as a main seating area then it's going to need some form of bimini in hot weather, and will be more exposed than aft cockpit in cooler weather.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

With your bow stairs route to the foredeck, why not eliminate side decks all together and push the saloon out to the full width of the boat?

This would give you a space advantage, FB space advantage - as per your point above many people (my wife) feel
Uneasy on the side decks of even 50ft boats. My Ferretti has very good decks but they are still on the tight side and you feel exposed.

I'm not sure I'll like everyinthing you propose, but I support your idea to innovate and change. Let's face it apart from space sucking mid owners cabins and a galley at the back or mid ships mobi design has remained pretty much static for 30 years.

Depends on the target market location of course, but side decks are pretty much essential for running the lazy lines forward when med mooring.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I have given this a lot of thought..... and I am convinced this is the crucial feature enabling the bow to be integrated as an attractive and much used entertaining area. Without a convenient and safe access route to the bow you can add all kinds of bells and whistles up there....... it just wont be used. The usual access route from the aft cockpit, along a long, narrow sidewalk, hand railings just above knee height and hands occupied - carrying a tray of tee mugs and sponge cakes - just doesn't work. It never did and never will. The bow will remain wasted and mostly forgotten acreage.

When the boat is moving at anything above displacement speed it even involves a risk. Children and older people would have to wear life-jackets just to move to and from the bow cockpit and maybe ask for the speed to be reduced while they move. Parents would be on high alert while their 4-8 year olds are virtually "hanging" on the side of the boat, moving to or from the bow.... even when the boat is anchoring. I know, because I have experienced it. A safe and convenient access route makes the entire difference.

If you think about it...... what better place could there be to enjoy the sea-view and catch some rays? Yet, in my experience the bow is hardly ever used. The cushioned sun pads on the "forward bulge" is a vain attempt to bring life to a dead zone. It doesn't work because the sun pads - or even the occasional bench seats - are mostly an afterthought and the access route sucks.



As I indicated in my reply to Deleted User I expect the outer envelope of the boat to be roughly similar to a Prestige 420 as it "packs" more or less the same "layers". The most visible difference will be on the flybridge, where you can expect some kind of (reasonably eye-pleasing) integrated frame structure in lieu of the common bimini top. Bimini tops usually don't add positively to a boat design anyway.

Completely disagree with your comments about the bow, we use the coachroof sunpad all the time, although admittedly on a sportcruiser so access to the bow is easy enough. For a boat in a sunny location, having somewhere to lie out and sunbathe is essential imho.

 

[Hugin]

With your bow stairs route to the foredeck, why not eliminate side decks all together and push the saloon out to the full width of the boat?
This would give you a space advantage, FB space advantage - as per your point above many people (my wife) feel
Uneasy on the side decks of even 50ft boats. My Ferretti has very good decks but they are still on the tight side and you feel exposed.

Exactly.:encouragement: Kudos for being the first to spot the potential. The original idea was to completely eliminate the side decks as there is now a safer route from the bow to the aft end. This would have gained us a huge increase in cockpit/salon/flybridge width. On second thought, we have moderated our ambitions a little..... so now we aim for very narrow but still usable side decks with a grab handle on the side of the flybridge but no other hand railings. There are several reasons for this -

1) Some Med boaters here will mumble about "walking the lines". Edit: Jimmy_the_builder beat me to it
2) For hanging/rearranging fenders in places where it can be difficult/impossible to reach from the salon
3) For emergencies. Getting quickly from the bow to the aft end (or the reverse) without having to struggle with opening hatches/doors in the process.
4) For appearance. We want to keep the appearance reasonably "conventional". Many of our ideas are unconventional - adding an extra potential market acceptance barrier is an unnecessary risk at this point unless we also gain something valuable.

So we wont gain the full width advantage due to this compromise, but we gain enough to do what we set out to do . Maybe lessons learned and new upcoming ideas will tip the balance and completely eliminate the side decks in Mk. II, III or IV

 

[longjohnsilver]

So far I've only seen mention of a day heads and an ensuite cabin. Is that it, 2 toilets and one shower? Or have I missed something?

However I do like the idea of a single engine, makes a lot of sense. Are you planning on having a genny, any boat with a large crew is likely to be power hungry.

 

[Hugin]

Cracking idea, much better than wasting those side decks. I like the idea of the bow access, we have easy and safe access to the bow sections and use the bow more than anywhere on passages, 1.3m high teak handrail and bulwarks may not look so cool on a planning mobo though

What kind of seating arrangement do you have there? Side tables or similar?
Can you rig up sun shade?
Do you bring food/drinkables forward? Reading? Other activities?

I'm really interested in learning more. The bow cockpit is one of the features we haven't a firm plan for yet, except for some idea there should be at least a choice between some cushioned seating and sun beds/pads for minimum 2 people. So getting a better picture how real people might use the area is valuable

 

[Hugin]

If you plan to use the bow area as a main seating area then it's going to need some form of bimini in hot weather, and will be more exposed than aft cockpit in cooler weather.

OTOH, ventilation is unbeatable when on the move

I think a couple of sockets for a standard garden parasol would do the trick when the boat is stationary. If you want shade while the boat is on the move then there's both a flybridge and an opened up aft cockpit for that. Of course other more targeted solutions could be devised, but I think it's just complicating things.

 

[Hugin]

Completely disagree with your comments about the bow, we use the coachroof sunpad all the time, although admittedly on a sportcruiser so access to the bow is easy enough. For a boat in a sunny location, having somewhere to lie out and sunbathe is essential imho.

I agree with the last; and I appreciate the alternative point of view. I'm not aware which boat you have; why is bow access easier than on other boats? Through-windshield opening or...?

Do anyone use the sun pad on your boat while it is on the move.... let alone on the plane? Boat designers are so convinced you or your guests wont use the bow sun pad while on the move that they dedicate valuable cockpit space for aft facing sun pads on many sport cruisers.

 

[stuartwineberg]

Rather out of my league this discussion, but on the bow access staircase, I was in Haslar when a new superyacht came in needing help - they had a jacuzzi on the foredeck with a staircase arrangement leading down to a watertight door. The bow had dipped at speed, taken a load of water into the empty pool which had then hydrauliced its way down the staircase and punched through the door flooding the interior so for sure that arrangement would need to be protected when at sea.

 

[Whitelighter]

42ft mobo with full width saloon

I give you the silverton 43

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I agree with the last; and I appreciate the alternative point of view. I'm not aware which boat you have; why is bow access easier than on other boats? Through-windshield opening or...?

Do anyone use the sun pad on your boat while it is on the move.... let alone on the plane? Boat designers are so convinced you or your guests wont use the bow sun pad while on the move that they dedicate valuable cockpit space for aft facing sun pads on many sport cruisers.

Fairline Targa 40-S . No special access, we just climb over the screen on the port side (helm is starboard).

It's nice to be up on the bow sunpad when pootling at displacement speeds, but I've yet to experience any planing boat where the bow is useable at planing speeds.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Which yard is going to build it? Sounds a very interesting project.

 

[petem]

I don't like having 8 people sleeping in my 4 bedroom house. I certainly wouldn't entertain it on a sub 100ft boat.

 

[Hugin]

Prestige manage to put out a nice 4 cabin boat in 4 versions with the 2 50' variants costing around half of your low estimate.

Stretching it a bit to consider crew quarters a 4th cabin. The awkward access and lack of headroom disqualifies it a bit, but OK...... 3 and a half cabin maybe.

I think a price differential will be important, I know that Prestige struggle to sell their 40 foot boats because it's a, (relatively), small step up in price for the 50 foot boat. That's more than anecdotal and worth considering.

Yes, it's very interesting and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. On one hand potential buyers are (seemingly) rejecting boats of roughly the same size and weight as I'm working on. That's a negative of course.
OTOH, both the 420 and 450 are strictly 2-cabin designs. What we don't know is where potential clients interested in a new ~€500.000 mobo go after they have rejected the 420/450.
Best advertised (AFAIK) prices from this summer:

Prestige 500 w. IPS600 €532.000 ex. VAT
Prestige 450 w. IPS500 €428.000 ex. VAT
Bavaria Virtess 420 Fly w. IPS600 €374.000 ex. VAT
(all delivered in Germany, standard versions)

So do the clients rejecting a Prestige 420/450 dig at least €104.000 + VAT deeper into their pension savings to get the 3rd cabin (and more space overall, of course) of a Prestige 500?
Or do they save €54.000 and get the 3rd cabin from Bavaria (or Galeon)? We simply don't know, because those on a budget and interested in 3 cabins wouldn't worthy the Prestige 420/450 a glance in the first place. And those not on a tight budget might look at other 50 ft 3-cabin boats and reach the conclusion that Prestige offered the best value overall.

What if the Prestige 450 had a 3rd cabin without diminishing the Master and VIP cabins? I'd say it would very likely hurt the sale of the Prestige 500..... but probably also the sale of Bavaria and Galeon 3-cabin boats, because the Prestige 450 is ahead of those two in regards to concept and overall space

The new sealine 530 looks to be at least as competitive.

I disagree with that. It's a big, impressively looking, floating thing, yes..... but seriously under powered. You don't spend extra for IPS600 to get 26 knots on a good day. I strongly suspect the whole project is founded on the premise "How big a boat can we build up arond the IPS600 without looking ridicules" I think they went at least 3-4 tons too far. Nothing wrong with reducing speed requirement, but then the rationale for IPS is literally blown out of the water. The salon dinette is something from a 35 ft sport cruiser..... the impressive galley doesn't compensate for that.