French canals this winter?

[Trident]

I'm aiming for a crossing by the end of July. How much later do you think we could aim for and still have a reasonable chance of a good crossing?

One major consideration is that we will have our young son aboard. It's one thing to put up with tough conditions when you are an adult who has knowingly chosen to go out in those conditions. But for his sake, we try to minimise exposure to heavier weather.

If you coast hop the last part of Biscay is just 24 hours or so from the Gironde and easy to find a good window for in July /August. The only downside is you'll either not have much time in the Rias to make the Med by October (can be a bit hit and mis after that) or you'll get to the Med late and might be restricted on when and where you can go

 

[nortada]

We did the Biscay and North Coast option in 2014 and it was some of the best times on the journey (we then spent 4 years in the Med) - there are some lovely coastal anchorages, great towns, Santader, Gijon, A Coruna as well as the smaller places that most people never see. Had fairly good winds and sailed the whole way looking at my logs except about 4 hours in coast fog and motoring . That was in a 35 foot cat that simply couldn't go closer than 60 degrees to wind so it cant have been too problematic.

I think either route you will enjoy but to me the joy of sailing the outside as opposed to motoring the canals is a winner. We took our time and went down France to the Gironde, then across to Hondaribia and did the entire north coast of Spain - absolutely lovely

Arcachon, it's 'in land sea' and the highest sand-dune in Europe (Dune of Pilat) is worth a stop-over but try to book the inshore route through the Landes Live Firing Range.

 

[Kelpie]

If you coast hop the last part of Biscay is just 24 hours or so from the Gironde and easy to find a good window for in July /August. The only downside is you'll either not have much time in the Rias to make the Med by October (can be a bit hit and mis after that) or you'll get to the Med late and might be restricted on when and where you can go

Not too worried about missing getting in to the Med, but concerned about leaving it too late to get to the Canaries.

 

[JVL]

Not too worried about missing getting in to the Med, but concerned about leaving it too late to get to the Canaries.

Sailing directions of old stated south of Cape St Vincent by the first of November! I appreciate it’s your first time south and you have justified family concerns! As Paddy says you have done the hard bit Skye to Cameret! It really is a case of just setting off with a good forecast and rocking up to tapas three days later feeling justifiable pleased with yourselves. Enjoy ?

 

[BoyBlue49]

I'm getting mixed messages about timing, you mentioned the canals in winter then in another post being in the Canaries for winter. Then, in the Algarve for winter.

First of all some of the canals shut for maintenance in October onwards, if you were still thinking of that route.
If outside route, You need to be through Biscay by the equinox and most of your journey south.
The latest I would leave crossing or day sailing coastal ports of Biscay to arrive in The Algarve would be the last week of July. That would give you 8 weeks to enjoy the many delightful ports and achorages on the way.

 

[Kelpie]

I'm getting mixed messages about timing, you mentioned the canals in winter then in another post being in the Canaries for winter. Then, in the Algarve for winter.

First of all some of the canals shut for maintenance in October onwards, if you were still thinking of that route.
If outside route, You need to be through Biscay by the equinox and most of your journey south.
The latest I would leave crossing or day sailing coastal ports of Biscay to arrive in The Algarve would be the last week of July. That would give you 8 weeks to enjoy the many delightful ports and achorages on the way.

Apologies for confusing things.
The aim is to leave Scotland in June and be in the Caribbean in January.
But we are looking for backup plans and routes in case that doesn't happen.
e.g. we may not get away on time. Massive to-do list and an ongoing global pandemic might delay us.
Secondly we may get cold feet about going straight in to an Atlantic crossing, and decide to delay that for a year, in which case we'll need to think about where we spend the winter.

I was asking about the canals because I thought they might offer a way to spend the winter months whilst avoiding a late season Biscay crossing. However I'm rapidly going off that idea based on comments from those who have done it before, and it seems that the Biscay window is not quite as short as I thought; I also will give the in-shore route more consideration.

 

[PlanB]

One or two comments arising.

If visiting Arcachon, don't attempt to book ahead. The marina is full, with a huge waiting list, the visitor's quay is full of local boats. Just turn up and be prepared to raft. That sand dune is something else, though. It's also worth remembering that the channel markers move to adjust for floor movement, so use visual and don't stick rigidly to chart positions.

If you go through the firing range in August, it's likely to be closed and therefore safe. We tried to raise someone on VHF without success.

Insurers are likely to want you clear of Biscay by 30 Sep.

 

[reefknot]

Maybe. But I was under the impression that tackling the north coast of Spain was no fun, headwinds all the way.

When I left the UK in 1985 I broad reached all the way to the Cape..

 

[Sea Devil]

Apologies for confusing things.
The aim is to leave Scotland in June and be in the Caribbean in January.
But we are looking for backup plans and routes in case that doesn't happen.
e.g. we may not get away on time. Massive to-do list and an ongoing global pandemic might delay us.
Secondly we may get cold feet about going straight in to an Atlantic crossing, and decide to delay that for a year, in which case we'll need to think about where we spend the winter.

I was asking about the canals because I thought they might offer a way to spend the winter months whilst avoiding a late season Biscay crossing. However I'm rapidly going off that idea based on comments from those who have done it before, and it seems that the Biscay window is not quite as short as I thought; I also will give the in-shore route more consideration.

There are a few issues with the French canals route in winter in as much as the French do a lot of maintenance work at this time but there are always ways around it - Fluviacarte 21 is a map/chart of all the canals... very useful and not expensive.. The other issue is the river Saone which like the Thames s prone to flooding and can be challenging. You would be going downstream so with care navigable - My video about the French Canals might be interesting for you 2 parts the first is how to do it in practical terms - and the 2nd is all about the actual route down including the Saone and Rhone. Don't think the Rhone would be a problem because of all the barrages and locks -

 

[nortada]

One or two comments arising.

If visiting Arcachon, don't attempt to book ahead. The marina is full, with a huge waiting list, the visitor's quay is full of local boats. Just turn up and be prepared to raft. That sand dune is something else, though. It's also worth remembering that the channel markers move to adjust for floor movement, so use visual and don't stick rigidly to chart positions.

If you go through the firing range in August, it's likely to be closed and therefore safe. We tried to raise someone on VHF without success.

Insurers are likely to want you clear of Biscay by 30 Sep.

Landes Range, like most ranges primarily uses UHF frequencies, with a VHF back-up so possibly not listening on VHF. However, they are on the phone so you can make primary contact and ask them to listen-out on VHF.

Agree, the entrance to Arcachon can be interesting ‼

Rather than rafting up, we moored up on the fuel pontoon.

Found the town interesting.

 

[Graham376]

If you go through the firing range in August, it's likely to be closed and therefore safe. We tried to raise someone on VHF without success.
Insurers are likely to want you clear of Biscay by 30 Sep.

If doing the inshore route is coastal sailing and that doesn't stop in winter for insurance purposes, what they don't want is offshore passages.

We've been outside the range a couple of times, LaRochelle to Gijon only around 40 hours IIRC, rest of trip down to Algarve can be done in day sails but the later it gets, ports can be closed due to swell.

 

[GHA]

Apologies for confusing things.
The aim is to leave Scotland in June and be in the Caribbean in January.
But we are looking for backup plans and routes in case that doesn't happen.
e.g. we may not get away on time. Massive to-do list and an ongoing global pandemic might delay us.
Secondly we may get cold feet about going straight in to an Atlantic crossing, and decide to delay that for a year, in which case we'll need to think about where we spend the winter.

Get round St Vincent and your pretty much sorted for winter, either on the hook or marina with a decent winter rate. Hang out there for the winter then azores/madiera would be a nice maybe. Or Canaries can be done pretty much year round if you wait for the jet stream to keep north for a little while, usually does mostly until jan/feb then there are still windows. But again, it's all fun, milestones would be getting to and getting through Biscay. Setting off the usually the hardest bit, always one more thing in the way

 

[Sea Devil]

If doing the inshore route is coastal sailing and that doesn't stop in winter for insurance purposes, what they don't want is offshore passages.

We've been outside the range a couple of times, LaRochelle to Gijon only around 40 hours IIRC, rest of trip down to Algarve can be done in day sails but the later it gets, ports can be closed due to swell.

Yes I've done that bit from La Rochelle a couple of dozen times and never had any issue with the firing range - I would go direct La Rochelle or Royan down to Bilbao - the yacht club is very friendly and welcoming and it's just an overnight - Really don't think the hassle of getting into Arcachon is worth it... There is a good anchorage just up the channel on the left. in the last decade or so I have done this passage a dozen times and always enjoyed it
this video might be of interest

I too am heading for the Caribbean this coming winter - Martinique where I have reserved a berth in La Marin marina. I was going to sail across but looked at the cost of equipping her and have decided to put Golden Haze on a ship.... Have a look at this video - Its called The Caribbean Quickly and Easily - and I made it because of all the problems I was finding with the 90/180 rule for us in Europe and the cost of equipping the boat with hydrovanes and so on...

 

[Kelpie]

I'm guessing the inshore route is going to mean mostly marina hopping? Something we try to avoid for all sorts of reasons, but if it's day upon day for weeks then budget starts to come in to it.

Another option I'm considering is trying for a late season Biscay crossing, but leave the youngest crew member behind and he can fly out to join us. Assuming he's allowed to stay with grandparents by that time!

 

[Sea Devil]

I'm guessing the inshore route is going to mean mostly marina hopping? Something we try to avoid for all sorts of reasons, but if it's day upon day for weeks then budget starts to come in to it.

Another option I'm considering is trying for a late season Biscay crossing, but leave the youngest crew member behind and he can fly out to join us. Assuming he's allowed to stay with grandparents by that time!

The video and indeed the book Gentle Sailing Route to the Med is inshore and is really aimed at folks not wanting to spend a night at sea... The dozen or so times I have gone direct UK to Gib I have got myself to Fowey, Scilly Isles, Plymouth and waited for a good 5 day weather window down to Bayona just round the corner from Capo Finnesterre.. Taken a breath there then either headed down to Gib non stop or broken the passage as the mood took me.. From Bayona it is downwind sailing and pretty easy with stacks of options if anything comes up... Towards the end of my video Atlantic Crossing Guide I look at the routes down to the Atlantic start line in more detail...

 

[JVL]

I'm guessing the inshore route is going to mean mostly marina hopping? Something we try to avoid for all sorts of reasons, but if it's day upon day for weeks then budget starts to come in to it.

Another option I'm considering is trying for a late season Biscay crossing, but leave the youngest crew member behind and he can fly out to join us. Assuming he's allowed to stay with grandparents by that time!

The routes I’ve used for the west coast: 1, Down the east coast of Ireland to Kilmore Quay day hoping anchor every night until KQ overnight in the marina basic shopping, good pub , excellent chandlers buy your antifoul here for your next dryout/haulout overnight to Scilles anchor await weather window jump to Spain 4-5 days.
2. East coast Ireland again then jump to Milford haven anchor at Dale then Padstow good stop to get laundry sorted nice harbour then down to St Ives to anchor or if you have your tide spot on round lands end to Newlyn then overnight cross channel to the top of the Channel de Four down to Cameret to Anchor wait for A good forecast then three days to Cederia North Spain ( anchor) ? if you need any info as to anchorage’s “free harbours” en route just ask ?

 

[geem]

Thanks for those thoughts.
I'm a bit surprised that there isn't more love for the canals idea. I thought that the eastern route was 1.8m, a bit squeaky bum time in placesmaybe, but I had also presumed that doing it in winter might mean more water in the system.

Maybe my ideas are a bit too fixed. I was thinking that a) you really wanted to avoid hopping around Biscay inshore; b) you wanted to have done the crossing ideally by the end of July, maybe end of August at a stretch; c) it's necessary to get to the Algarve in order to have a comfortable winter afloat, with the option of continuing to cruise rather than hunkering down in the same place.

Regardless of what happens, we are moving aboard the boat this year. And even if we don't leave Scotland, we will have fun in our new lifestyle. But a bit of sun wouldn't hurt

We hope to get away from Glasson in July. Down to Scillies and wait for a weather window to cross to Coruna in August. We will then spend our 90 days cruising down to the Canaries then across to Antigua end of November ?

 

[Sea Devil]

I did Port St Louis to Le Havre in 14 days once plus a day or so at each end for mast and electrics. 1.8 is viable so its a good option. The first video is about the routes and the other is about the prep

and this one is about the nuts and bolts of doing them - I think a good alternative to the Biscay route

 

[PlanB]

If doing the inshore route is coastal sailing and that doesn't stop in winter for insurance purposes, what they don't want is offshore passages.

We've been outside the range a couple of times, LaRochelle to Gijon only around 40 hours IIRC, rest of trip down to Algarve can be done in day sails but the later it gets, ports can be closed due to swell.

We had told our insurers we were coast hopping Biscay and they still required us clear by 30 Sep.

 

[Grehan]

Our plan for this year is to set off early June, aiming for a Biscay crossing and possibly on to an Atlantic crossing at the end of year. But things are stacking up against us and we may not get away on time.
As a backup plan, I was thinking about the canals. We are about 1.7m so would need to go the Rhone route. I haven't been able to find out what the costs would be, how long you get in the network, etc etc. Plenty of info out there about the Midi and about hiring a little river boat, neither of which has any relevance. Also at 4.2m beam I think we are going to be a tight fit in some sections.
The idea would be to make a slow transit of the canals and enter the Med in the spring, then we have all summer to explore Corsica, Sardinia, Balearics, and finally get back on track a year later than planned for the Atlantic crossing.

So, a few points and comments by way of reply. I'm not going to get drawn on the Schengen / Residency / Visa aspects out of sheer ignorance and because I don't think the dust has settled in an operational rather than legal sense yet.

1.7m draft is doable, just, but the 'route' is not associated with the Rhone but rather the traditional canals that skirt, in a wide southern/eastern sense, Paris. That get you from the Seine or Northern France, to the 'Grande' Saône to the south-east (below St Jean de Losne, to Lyon). The larger rivers, Seine, Saône and Rhône have plenty of draft. As has been said, the Seine needs some planning because of tides up as far as Rouen, and the Rhône needs timing to avoid Spring snow melt and rainfall current consequences.

Most although not all traditional canals close during the winter, for sectional repairs / maintenance / draining but northern canals also often freeze over. Not only does that make progress difficult (if it were possible) but almost potentially seriously damaging to boat hulls. Normally speaking, one would aim to get to St Jean de Losne (the central 'hub' of the network in Burgundy where there's a large inland marina) by early November - and then over-winter there or at some other location (for example Macon), heading off south in March/April (depending on weather situation).

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