Fair for all

[nfp]

Whilst I agree with keeping boating as cheap as possible, it is getting a bit tiring listening to all you diesel powered boat owners winging about having to give up boating just because you may have to come in line with petrol powered boats.

The petrol boat owner has always had to pay pump prices, plus a bit more for fuel, without any relaxation or concession.

It is about time that you stopped moaning about how much it is going to cost you and get into the real world

If we all support each other as one big happy family, as supposedly we do, what about asking the chancellor to reduce the duty on boat petrol and add the reduction onto diesel to even it up for all of us. Now that would be a good idea.


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[Gludy]

Whilst I agree that petrol is very expensive in the UK, petrol boat owners know what they are buying into and in the main petrol is only used for small boats that do not go far. mainly just local around the bay etc. These are very different to the larger crusing power boats.

If you want to see the effect on boat prices try looking for a rwin 300 hp petrol crusing boat - if you find one look at its price - basically 99.99% of such boats are diesel.

The simple fact is that if the fuel price reaches road price levels the cruising power boats in the UK will largely cease to exist - there would only be a rump left ... that is the reality.

Your simplistic approach is not based on any logic.

You give no details about yourself whatsoever and accuse us of moaning and not being real. So you obviously belong to a world that welcome overnight price increases of 300% to 400%. What hobbies do you persue - sailing? or do you won a small petrol power boat?

I would suggest that you identify who you are, what boat if any you own then provide a sensible arguement to support why such a hike in diesel prices should be applied.





<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[adarcy]

of course I waited for Gludy to have a go first but - it is very difficult to know where you're coming from with such an empty bio.

I think it is easy to agree on the surface of your argument that petrol users are being ripped off by paying Road Duty prices for not using the roads. However I think your underlying but not expressed premise is that the Government are only seeking a revenue-neutral change i.e. reduce tax on sea petrol balanced by increasing sea diesel income. Dream on, they only want to raise duty and their income, after all, our petrol duty is not harmonised with low, average or high european duty levels - ours are the highest.

One problem you may have missed is that there will be an underlying need to supply red diesel to still-exempt users like fishermen and ships even if they try and force full duty +/- VAT on leisure diesel. Sure the red exemption is a bit of an anachronism and I think it may end up with us leisure users paying full VAT - that is something retailers can cope with without duplicating tanks + pumps. The problem with that is the pressure is for harmonisation is not on the VAT but on the duty.

Boat owners who have bought boats that use diesel optionally (i.e. not small sportsboats where petrol may well be preferable and not bigger boats where petrol engines just do not have the punch) will feel they have invested in more expensive engines for their greater economy which is proposed to be denied. One of Gludy's main points (and with which I agree) is that loss of red exemption will NOT affect the "big, fat, rich" boaters - they will move abroad or, like us, will fill up abroad but will hit the more economically marginal and truly representative boater harder as they don't have that option. If they give up powerboating and the fatter cats pay in France or the Channel Isles, then the tax take may well reduce before one even considers the loss from boating-associated businesses.

Funny as it may sound initially, IMHO the best way to help petrol boaters is for them to help fight off the loss of derogation on red diesel, when that is won I feel confident that diesel users will be very vociferous in your support to remove the road duty on non-road use for petrol in boats. If the red derogation is lost, there will be no basis of reducing duty on petrol at all.

Anthony

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[Gludy]

"One of Gludy's main points (and with which I agree) is that loss of red exemption will NOT affect the "big, fat, rich" boaters - they will move abroad or, like us, will fill up abroad but will hit the more economically marginal and truly representative boater harder as they don't have that option."

Yes, yes, yes.

From where I stand it will kill the exact boating sector you identify so well and if anything will greatly reduce the numbers of cruising power boaters leaving only a very small rump. Boating is based not on the the large boat rich cats but on the wider foundation of those who sacrifice a lot to be on the water. Without this foundation of keen motor boaters the UK power boating scene will be destroyed.



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[longjohnsilver]

All shook up

Or buy a diesel boat, but then as a troll I don't suppose you'll ever post again.

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[BarryH]

"I feel confident that diesel users will be very vociferous in your support to remove the road duty on non-road use for petrol in boats"............in an ideal world maybe. BUT we don't live in an ideal world. The past has shown us that. That and the fact that the Government wouldn't even consider the idea. You and I both know that along with most of the populace. Still one can dream!

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[adarcy]

Promises, even to a suspected troll, are easy and, along with the squadrons of flying pigs, IF we get the derogation extended or permanent (some hope) the I think I would be quite happy to support petrol boat users in trying to get road fuel duty removed (iIF they had supported the diesel issue in numbers) - Why not? One can only dream

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[Gludy]

Its a thousand time more difficult ro roll a tax back than it is to stop one being imposed.
There is simply no chance of petrol being rolled back for marine use.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

No taxation without representation worked pretty well in the C18th. Maybe Bliar and Brown and their gang need reminding that they don't represent many of us, gaining under 25% of possible votes at the last election.

I wonder what Tony Blair does for fun, I confidently trust that a Conservative Chancellor will suggest taxing it out of existence



<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[Gludy]

There are a fair number of taxes without representatiojn - business rates for one.
These rates are so high in some town centres that they are rapidly turning into charity shop centres!

The fuel used by cruising power boats is so small as to be insignificant in terms of taxataion - less than £20m no matter how you look at it. A rise to road fuel levels would make it even smaller. We just have to make the problems so much of a headache for government that it is not worth their while changing it.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[adarcy]

<<No taxation without representation worked pretty well>>

but vice versa is true as well. In the greek city states, only citizens who paid the taxes voted. The essence of democracy was ( note was ) the combination of power with responsibilty and having to pay for it, decided in a communal setting.

The much-vilified Poll tax was designed to address the Tower Hamlets issue where, I think, approximately 80% of the electors did not pay taxes or rates. Surprise surprise, they kept voting to increase local expenditure and let the few ratepayers and general central government kitty pay for it. Naturally this was represented as a tax on voting but social benefit levels were to be, and were, raised by the average of local rates. Therefore, people were given the opportunity to "make a profit" by voting in low taxers and " a loss" by voting in high taxers. But surely that is what true democracy should mean. The tragedy was that Maggie's government did not freeze local government expenditure enough for the following year (or invest enough assuming councils would shove a load of expenditure through) so the local element of contribution doubled. However, I still cannot see it as anything other than true democracy. Yet "everyone" was dead against it and the local v central funding of local services fiasco continues.

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[Gludy]

I happen to agree with you in totallity.

In fact local expenditure is out of control and we have the dim nit wits in charge of it.

I have personally watched many millions being wasted on incredibly poorly managed projects that the tax payer has paid a fortune for and the project has actually done harm all round without any residual value.

The poll tax was a fairly based tax but even the community charge is now going to be done away with if Lib/Dems have their way - does that mean the end of business rates? Or is the proposal to have people locally taxed and businesses without a vote continuing to pay?

I am also fed up with the docile attitude of many who seem to think that high taxes and governement control is to be accepted without a murmer of protest.

Thats my little moan for the day .. I feel better now.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[steverow]

You seem to have missed a crucial point.
Most petrol boats are day boats or sports boats, most of them (at least in our marina) seem to go out fairly infrequently, maybe on the odd fishing or skiing trip.
Diesel boats predominantly are long distance serious cruising vessels, which are capable of long distances and many do just that.
So defined by usage, the fuel cost ratios of ownership are about the same.

Steve.

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[BrendanS]

I guess it depends on which marina you are in, but I know many diesel boats that never move, while many petrol boats go on extended long distance trips

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[ShipsWoofy]

I would also say it was the total opposite, the smaller boats seem do far more milage around here than the big guzzlers.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Woof</A>

 

[Gludy]

Yes but generally the bigger cruising boats use more fuel and would be hit big time by the fuel price hike. Of course there are those boats that never moved ... I know a 60 footer than did 3 hours in 3 years ... but that does not effect Steve's point which is valid.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul