Dip the rope

[Shakemeister]

Errr, because it's only polite to not mess about with someone else's lines.

As a flotilla skipper I once had someone from a different company move one of my guests' anchor. I told him in no uncertain terms that was out of order.

I also had the same Aussie bloke move my guests lines to suit his flotilla.

What would you think if someone messed around with your mooring lines? Your property what you've worked hard for, not something you're renting for a week or two and is insured to the hilt.

Why is it so difficult to spend five seconds to dip your eye?

Why should someone else take the time taking the weight of your boat in order to get some slack so they can get their own line off?.

Selfish is the word.

 

[awol]

So how would the dip/no dip experts deal with .........?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Errr, because it's only polite to not mess about with someone else's lines.

As a flotilla skipper I once had someone from a different company move one of my guests' anchor. I told him in no uncertain terms that was out of order.

I also had the same Aussie bloke move my guests lines to suit his flotilla.

What would you think if someone messed around with your mooring lines? Your property what you've worked hard for, not something you're renting for a week or two and is insured to the hilt.

Why is it so difficult to spend five seconds to dip your eye?

Why should someone else take the time taking the weight of your boat in order to get some slack so they can get their own line off?.

Selfish is the word.

I am not touching anyones lines in the examples that are used to justify why I think dipping in yachts is pointless. You are making this up to try and justify your position and then I assume you are calling me selfish and insulting me. I would never interfere with another yachts lines unless I had permission of the skipper or there was some emergency. I leave my berth by adjusting my own lines with no need to interfere with anyone else. I ask you again, where have I indicated that I will block other lines or require to move other yacht lines to execute my manoeuvres?

The reason why I take a strong position on some matters is that the world of leisure sailing carries around a number of truisms accepted as defacto must dos or water tight explanations but they are in fact false. Over the years I have come to change my opinions based on my own but usually others experience explained to me. Dipping is one of them, it is just not required for safe mooring operations.

Why is it so difficult to spend 5s dipping, read my posts, I explain why I don't dip. I am very comfortable with how I berth my yachts and I certainly am not a selfish yachtsman in any way.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Resorting to insults now,

Really?

How about:

post #121 ...You demonstrate a level of ignorance commensurate with someone with little practical experience.

My expertise is 10s of thousands of miles as skipper and first mate on sailing training yachts, the largest I have skippered is 55', the largest yacht I have sailed is 75'. The vast majority of these miles have been around the British coastline and from Lisbon to Bergen, mooring in every type of harbour on a regular basis. I received my training from ex merchantmen and a couple of RN persons.

Pity that during all that claimed experience you did not learn any manners.

 

[ghostlymoron]

The Queen Elizabeth docked here (St Peter port) the other night. I didn't go round to offer to take her lines/dip their ropes.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... Pity that during all that claimed experience you did not learn any manners.

Wow Puff, now you are hinting that I am lying about my experience and then state that I need to learn manners when I have not insulted you. What I suggested is that the paradigm you hold on dipping is not relevant and that your ignorance [on this matter, taught lines, for example] is down to a lack of small boat experience. Anyway, I guess I am donkey with a dirty face who is as stubborn as a mule.

Good Day!

 

[pmagowan]

If you've got that much tension on the rope, you won't get it off the bollard anyway - that's why most people who don't have shoreside mooring crew rig slips - it also means you can set off with everyone on the boat and don't leave with someone dangling by a leg from the guard wires...

You will have no tension on your line as you are leaving and will have relieved the tension for the purpose of removing your line. It is the other lines on the bollard that pose the problem. If someone has a line above yours (they arrived last and didn't dip) and there is tension on it then you can not remove your line without undoing any knot or splice. If they have dipped then you simply lift your loop off and away you go. It is not that difficult and it is only of dubious importance on a yacht if there is never likely to be any significant tension on the lines but, in my experience, even small yachts can make enough tension to make things tricky. I have spliced loops so I need others to dip otherwise I need to remove them, then myself and then reattach them. It is a simple technique which costs nothing and makes everyone else's lives easier, even on small boats.

 

[l'escargot]

You will have no tension on your line as you are leaving and will have relieved the tension for the purpose of removing your line. It is the other lines on the bollard that pose the problem. If someone has a line above yours (they arrived last and didn't dip) and there is tension on it then you can not remove your line without undoing any knot or splice. If they have dipped then you simply lift your loop off and away you go. It is not that difficult and it is only of dubious importance on a yacht if there is never likely to be any significant tension on the lines but, in my experience, even small yachts can make enough tension to make things tricky. I have spliced loops so I need others to dip otherwise I need to remove them, then myself and then reattach them. It is a simple technique which costs nothing and makes everyone else's lives easier, even on small boats.

So you have two people to release the line or you have to leap aboard as your boat is moving rapidly away from the pontoon, pushed by the forces causing the immense tension on the line? Sounds like you're just playing "big ships" and making life difficult for yourself. Much easier to just rig a slip...

 

[andygc]

You will have no tension on your line as you are leaving and will have relieved the tension for the purpose of removing your line. It is the other lines on the bollard that pose the problem. If someone has a line above yours (they arrived last and didn't dip) and there is tension on it then you can not remove your line without undoing any knot or splice. If they have dipped then you simply lift your loop off and away you go. It is not that difficult and it is only of dubious importance on a yacht if there is never likely to be any significant tension on the lines but, in my experience, even small yachts can make enough tension to make things tricky. I have spliced loops so I need others to dip otherwise I need to remove them, then myself and then reattach them. It is a simple technique which costs nothing and makes everyone else's lives easier, even on small boats.

Indeed, and I'm a bit surprised that BlowingOldBoots hasn't discovered this in all his experience. I, too, have sailed thousands of miles in sail training yachts, including mate up to 75 feet and skipper up to 57 feet, and was trained by the Navy, Army and RAF. I'm well aware of how to trap other people's lines. One good way is to add a large tied eye at the bottom of the pile on the bollard, clear under all the others. The next arrival brings his eye up through all of the eyes, including that one. That traps all of the previous eyes - they can't get past that large eye because they can't untie it under tension. So laying that large tied eye sets a trap. Oh. I see. That's what Blowing does. Oh well, as long as he's leaving first ......

 

[pmagowan]

So you have two people to release the line or you have to leap aboard as your boat is moving rapidly away from the pontoon, pushed by the forces causing the immense tension on the line? Sounds like you're just playing "big ships" and making life difficult for yourself. Much easier to just rig a slip...

Most people don't leave their boats on slips until time to leave. There is no tension on a released line. It is not difficult to put a line on the correct way so as not to cause inconvenience to others. My boat leaves the pontoon at a sedate pace. If you put a loop on a bollard that is already in use you have a choice. You can do it in a way that is no more difficult yet allows anyone to leave without hindrance or you can do it such that you have trapped them and they must first remove your line before they can remove theirs. It seems obvious that any reasonable person would choose the former.

 

[colind3782]

I wonder if the OP was trolling? It's certainly done the trick!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... That's what Blowing does. Oh well, as long as he's leaving first ......

If you read what I have said my line is always on the bottom if I have a choice, irrespective of how many lines are already on the bollard. Once I have double up, I remove my bowline that is below all others and retrieve the line, leaving me hanging by my doubled up line, it is not difficult to understand from what I have written. When someone comes in after me, they can dip through my line, it makes no difference to my position (or theirs). Another experience that I can share is that when lines are dipped and there is a bit of jostling going on due to slop and tension is coming on and off warps (that are usually stiff nylon), all the back ends of the dipped loops can fall into an un-dipped position. None of this is rocket science, I just don't think that dipping is relevant because 1) most yachts are not moored with bar tight lines 2) If my line is at the bottom anyone above me can leave at any time 3) fellow sailors can still dip through my line 4) in anything other than slack conditions I depart with doubled up lines and therefore dipping is irrelevant 5) I don't use mooring lines with spliced eyes so I can always break the back of the bowline 6) dipped eyes do jam against other dipped lines, especially in smaller diameters at obtuse angles.

 

[l'escargot]

Most people don't leave their boats on slips until time to leave. There is no tension on a released line. It is not difficult to put a line on the correct way so as not to cause inconvenience to others. My boat leaves the pontoon at a sedate pace. If you put a loop on a bollard that is already in use you have a choice. You can do it in a way that is no more difficult yet allows anyone to leave without hindrance or you can do it such that you have trapped them and they must first remove your line before they can remove theirs. It seems obvious that any reasonable person would choose the former.

They would have to put slips, or "double up" their lines which I believe is the correct term, to relieve all the tension you experience. Then they can just dip their line in reverse when they leave, seems an obvious method that doesn't rely on the actions of others is no more difficult and entirely reasonable...

 

[l'escargot]

I wonder if the OP was trolling? It's certainly done the trick!

If he wasn't, some others might be...

 

[adwuk]

If he wasn't, some others might be...

Next time someone comes into the visitor's berth next to us I am going to ask "do you want me to dip the rope?" Then at least you will know if they are a reader of ybw.com forums!

 

[pmagowan]

They would have to put slips, or "double up" their lines which I believe is the correct term, to relieve all the tension you experience. Then they can just dip their line in reverse when they leave, seems an obvious method that doesn't rely on the actions of others is no more difficult and entirely reasonable...

Sorry that doesn't make sense. If two boats have their lines with spliced eyes going to the same bollard and they simply put theirs on without dipping then the first one to arrive is trapped as long as the second line is taught (as it generally will be). There is no way of removing the first line without cutting it or interfering with the second line. You can't 'reverse dip'. This is the whole point of dipping: so that you do not rely on being able to adjust someone else's line. As others have pointed out, with smaller boats it is normally possible to get enough slack on the culprits line to pull yours through but why rely on this when there is a technique that avoids any issue. You can always take the tension off your own line as you have control on your own lines.

 

[Hydrozoan]

Dipping being taught may avoid a tort when lines are taut.

 

[l'escargot]

Sorry that doesn't make sense. If two boats have their lines with spliced eyes going to the same bollard and they simply put theirs on without dipping then the first one to arrive is trapped as long as the second line is taught (as it generally will be). There is no way of removing the first line without cutting it or interfering with the second line. You can't 'reverse dip'. This is the whole point of dipping: so that you do not rely on being able to adjust someone else's line. As others have pointed out, with smaller boats it is normally possible to get enough slack on the culprits line to pull yours through but why rely on this when there is a technique that avoids any issue. You can always take the tension off your own line as you have control on your own lines.

It makes sense, you're just trying hard not to understand it. Put your hand through the other loops if yours is at the bottom and pull it up through and over the bollard and let it drop back down through the loops - I've done it. You don't have to adjust anyone else's line. The chances of there being too much tension to do that is pretty remote, if there is, you probably shouldn't be setting off anyway..,

 

[andygc]

If you read what I have said my line is always on the bottom if I have a choice, irrespective of how many lines are already on the bollard. Once I have double up, I remove my bowline that is below all others and retrieve the line, leaving me hanging by my doubled up line, it is not difficult to understand from what I have written. When someone comes in after me, they can dip through my line, it makes no difference to my position (or theirs). Another experience that I can share is that when lines are dipped and there is a bit of jostling going on due to slop and tension is coming on and off warps (that are usually stiff nylon), all the back ends of the dipped loops can fall into an un-dipped position. None of this is rocket science, I just don't think that dipping is relevant because 1) most yachts are not moored with bar tight lines 2) If my line is at the bottom anyone above me can leave at any time 3) fellow sailors can still dip through my line 4) in anything other than slack conditions I depart with doubled up lines and therefore dipping is irrelevant 5) I don't use mooring lines with spliced eyes so I can always break the back of the bowline 6) dipped eyes do jam against other dipped lines, especially in smaller diameters at obtuse angles.

I read what you said. You didn't read what I said. Anybody arriving after you who puts his eye up through all the eyes will trap all of the eyes above yours. You are all right because you can untie yours. The last one to arrive is all right because he arrived last. If somebody who arrives before you, who has moored with a spliced eye, wants to leave before you, he can't.

To you and L'escargot, rigging slips is called "singling up". The point is not whether or not the person leaving can slacken their line, it's the tension in the other lines that traps the line that needs to be freed. If moored in a river with a couple of knots of tide running you can't just extricate a line with a spliced eye. I don't expect to have to wait until slack water to leave.

However, it seems that there are some folk who understand the point, and some who just won't. The method had been used for longer than yachstmen have been sailing for pleasure. Nothing more to say.

 

[Poignard]

To you and L'escargot, rigging slips is called "singling up".

No it isn't.