RAI
Well-known member
Just like a hand brake skid turn, a twitch on the helm at the right moment helps. Too much gusto may damage the bow roller.
Delta to Rocna - is it worth it - three specific questions
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JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Good point. For anything more than a lunch break an anchor which will not reset itself unsupervised is a liability. It's worth getting it properly dug in at first, because it shows that the anchor/bottom combination works, but after that it has to work on its own.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
If you come in at a bit of an angle to your intended final direction - 30o off, say - then the chain stays to one side at you swing round. It probably helps that my boat has a traditional curvey-out stem, which keeps the chain away, and a long keel so no fin or saildrive to tangle things round.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Firstly sorry it a bit of a long posting .
Boredom set in waiting for the melteni to die down , so I decided to do my own experiment , sorry no photo .
We have three anchors on board , a 20 kg Rocna which is our main anchor , a 16 kg Delta which came with the boat and a FX23 Fortress . Leaving the Rocna out of it has it was hold our boat at the time . Each of the two anchors had 4 mts of 8 mm chain and muti plait anchor line ,
One was dropped on weed the other on sand with some grave , in 2 mts depth , each was slowly pull with. The dinghy in a way that would represent a light breeze or gently Rev under engine , just enough that the line started to get tight , the drop your anchor and have a cup of tea type of way , although some don't ever go that far to put any tension on just leaving there anchor where it drops.
On inspection, the fortress laid on the sand with both tips just biting , the delta sat on top of the weed with a few strand of weed over it ,
They was left like that , I took a dive diving an hour later I found the delta just has I left it sitting on the weed , the fortress now had a very thin layer of sand on the flukes more then likely cause by the speed boats roaring over it and the small swell .
Now we come to the Last part of the test , I pull the anchor and try to set them with the dinghy , no surprises in Both cases , the delta did nothing other then pull a load of weed up the fortress set nicely but that would had happen if I set it in the first places the small amount of sand wouldn't made any different to how quickly or how well it took to set .
We try again this time the fortress went on the weed and the delta on the sand , the delta this time on inspections had part of the tip in the sand , the fortress was through the top part of the weed , once again another cup of tea , some hull cleaning .
This time I found the delta was living on it side , it fell over the fortress was in the same place it was left , using the dinghy to set both the anchors again . the delta started to set after a few meters the fortress came away with a bundle of weed .
Ok I agree this isn't any scientific test under lab condition , but it show me if no body else that dropping an anchor and leaving it to it own devises does nothing to help it set .
If these test was done on mud the result would no doubt had been different , the anchors would had been partly under the mud But then any thing heavy drop on mud would .
One last point , some will say this test are mean less because there no boat at the end of the scope to dance about to help the anchor to work itself in ,
For One . If and anchor is drop in no wind or light winds especially one with all chain , the anchor wouldn't wiggle any where has the weight of the boat will be on the chain and won't get to touch the anchor ,have you never seen you chain snaking all over the place while you anchor is sitting quietly under the boat
And Two , in the case the anchor is dropped in an windy conditions depending of how strong the wind was it do two things , it will eve pulled back so fast that it just bounce on the sea bed , just like trying to set an anchor user too much power and going to fast , or it will start to set , just like setting it under engine nice and slow , only different is that under wind only , you won't know how well it set of it it just fouled and waiting for the next big gust of wind to rip it out .
My concussion is . All anyone does by dropping an anchor and leaving it to it only devices then going back to set it is just delaying what he should had done in the first place .
Please excuse my spell mistakes and Grammar .
Boredom set in waiting for the melteni to die down , so I decided to do my own experiment , sorry no photo .
We have three anchors on board , a 20 kg Rocna which is our main anchor , a 16 kg Delta which came with the boat and a FX23 Fortress . Leaving the Rocna out of it has it was hold our boat at the time . Each of the two anchors had 4 mts of 8 mm chain and muti plait anchor line ,
One was dropped on weed the other on sand with some grave , in 2 mts depth , each was slowly pull with. The dinghy in a way that would represent a light breeze or gently Rev under engine , just enough that the line started to get tight , the drop your anchor and have a cup of tea type of way , although some don't ever go that far to put any tension on just leaving there anchor where it drops.
On inspection, the fortress laid on the sand with both tips just biting , the delta sat on top of the weed with a few strand of weed over it ,
They was left like that , I took a dive diving an hour later I found the delta just has I left it sitting on the weed , the fortress now had a very thin layer of sand on the flukes more then likely cause by the speed boats roaring over it and the small swell .
Now we come to the Last part of the test , I pull the anchor and try to set them with the dinghy , no surprises in Both cases , the delta did nothing other then pull a load of weed up the fortress set nicely but that would had happen if I set it in the first places the small amount of sand wouldn't made any different to how quickly or how well it took to set .
We try again this time the fortress went on the weed and the delta on the sand , the delta this time on inspections had part of the tip in the sand , the fortress was through the top part of the weed , once again another cup of tea , some hull cleaning .
This time I found the delta was living on it side , it fell over the fortress was in the same place it was left , using the dinghy to set both the anchors again . the delta started to set after a few meters the fortress came away with a bundle of weed .
Ok I agree this isn't any scientific test under lab condition , but it show me if no body else that dropping an anchor and leaving it to it own devises does nothing to help it set .
If these test was done on mud the result would no doubt had been different , the anchors would had been partly under the mud But then any thing heavy drop on mud would .
One last point , some will say this test are mean less because there no boat at the end of the scope to dance about to help the anchor to work itself in ,
For One . If and anchor is drop in no wind or light winds especially one with all chain , the anchor wouldn't wiggle any where has the weight of the boat will be on the chain and won't get to touch the anchor ,have you never seen you chain snaking all over the place while you anchor is sitting quietly under the boat
And Two , in the case the anchor is dropped in an windy conditions depending of how strong the wind was it do two things , it will eve pulled back so fast that it just bounce on the sea bed , just like trying to set an anchor user too much power and going to fast , or it will start to set , just like setting it under engine nice and slow , only different is that under wind only , you won't know how well it set of it it just fouled and waiting for the next big gust of wind to rip it out .
My concussion is . All anyone does by dropping an anchor and leaving it to it only devices then going back to set it is just delaying what he should had done in the first place .
Please excuse my spell mistakes and Grammar .
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
How about people who let the normal anchoring forces of the boat do the initial dig in, then apply a bit of a grunt with the engine later? That, after all, is what has been suggested.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Do I under stand right , when you say , by normal anchoring forces of the boat , as in letting the wind blow the boat back and the weigh of the boat forcing the anchor to start to dig in ? If that what we talking about , That comes with it own problem , let take the common weed , sea grass after all there plenty of that about ,
Under normal conditions with some wind an anchor will soon take an hold on grass ,and it can easily feel like the anchor is set , there been many a case that we power back on grass and 600 holding 1000 still holding 1200 and away we go ,
So while the guy is now doing what ever his doing it wouldn't take much for the anchor to break free , has you already said once an anchor start to drag and speed is gain there very little chance it will start to set again , I think we both agree on that , so what happen next , well that all depend on what behind the boat , it could be you having a nice lunch time stop . It could be ague that it won't get to that stage the skipper will notice what happen , and pigs might fly .
That's the problem JD
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I think it was BBQ who give a very good simple on how to set an anchor , early in the thread , maybe the go and have a cup of tea mod should go and read it and they won't have to spend good money buy a new anchor
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
I thought we agreed that whacking on full reverse power immediately after dropping the anchor was a bad thing? Are we now just discussing how long to wait before giving a good hard pull to test? Something I don't do, by the way, since "Yanmar 1GM10s" and "good hard pull" don't really go together.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
If you read BBQ reply 43# I think you find your answer ,
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D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
A few weeks ago we spent a week cruising in company with an experienced owner of an 82ft mobo and his anchoring technique went something like this. When he found a general location in which he wanted to drop his anchor, he would decide on the length of chain he wanted paid out and hand over the helm to either his SWMBO or his crew. He would then dive into the water with his mask and snorkel in front of his boat and direct the helmsman to manouvre the boat to the exact position where he wanted the anchor dropped. Still in the water, he would then direct the helmsman to lift and drop the anchor until he was happy that the anchor was sitting on the seabed in its correct position before allowing the helmsman to pay out the agreed length of chain. Once that was done, he would instruct the helmsman to go astern on both engines (1500hp each!) slowly at first and then with more revs. He would then watch the anchor set itself and only when he was happy that the anchor had buried itself fully and was halfway to Australia would he allow the helmsman to ease off the engines! He would then clamber on board and reward himself with several beers
Not sure he'd use the same technique in the freezing cold waters of N Europe but it works for him in the Med
Not sure he'd use the same technique in the freezing cold waters of N Europe but it works for him in the Med
noelex
Well-known member
I am bit in two minds about the issue of pausing before applying any reverse to set the anchor.
It is a very common technique, mostly used by owners of anchors that are reluctant to set.
In very light wind with little or no force on the anchor it is very hard to imagine anything is happening to the anchor at all. For example, I photographed this Bruce (not my anchor) several hours after it was dropped. It is just sitting on the surface of the substrate. It is possible that there are some micro changes to to the substrate under the anchor, but there are no changes I can see. It hard to imagine anything significant has happened or would happen if the wind stayed light and the anchor was left longer.
At the other end of the scale anchoring in strong wind the anchor is immediately under high force, even while you are having your coffee. This is no different to applying reverse directly after dropping the anchor and laying out the chain. An anchor that will not hold when you immediately start applying reverse is not going to hold if you have to drop in strong wind.
In strong wind you can use the windlass clutch to try and ramp up the setting force, but this only buys you a very short time and is no different to the way you would gradually apply reverse
An intermediate wind is the most interesting case. The light, gradual, jerky force, especially from slightly different directions is ideal for the anchor to start wriggling under the substrate. I think this is where the advantage of the "drop the anchor and have a cup of coffee" applies. For an anchor that has difficulty setting this "wriggling time" gives the anchor tip a chance of penetrating and gives the anchor a higher chance of digging in when a higher force is applied.
However, I would caution that if you are relying on this you will not have the ability to do this if you drop in strong wind.
For what it worth, after dropping the anchor and laying out the chain I immediately start applying reverse. I ramp up the force on the anchor, as this gives the anchor an advantage especially in the initial stages when starting to set.
With a good anchor the success rate when doing this is very high. A pause after dropping would probably increase the success rate, but I anchor full time and the last time my anchor did not set first time was perhaps six months ago. Why bother waiting?
It is a very common technique, mostly used by owners of anchors that are reluctant to set.
In very light wind with little or no force on the anchor it is very hard to imagine anything is happening to the anchor at all. For example, I photographed this Bruce (not my anchor) several hours after it was dropped. It is just sitting on the surface of the substrate. It is possible that there are some micro changes to to the substrate under the anchor, but there are no changes I can see. It hard to imagine anything significant has happened or would happen if the wind stayed light and the anchor was left longer.
At the other end of the scale anchoring in strong wind the anchor is immediately under high force, even while you are having your coffee. This is no different to applying reverse directly after dropping the anchor and laying out the chain. An anchor that will not hold when you immediately start applying reverse is not going to hold if you have to drop in strong wind.
In strong wind you can use the windlass clutch to try and ramp up the setting force, but this only buys you a very short time and is no different to the way you would gradually apply reverse
An intermediate wind is the most interesting case. The light, gradual, jerky force, especially from slightly different directions is ideal for the anchor to start wriggling under the substrate. I think this is where the advantage of the "drop the anchor and have a cup of coffee" applies. For an anchor that has difficulty setting this "wriggling time" gives the anchor tip a chance of penetrating and gives the anchor a higher chance of digging in when a higher force is applied.
However, I would caution that if you are relying on this you will not have the ability to do this if you drop in strong wind.
For what it worth, after dropping the anchor and laying out the chain I immediately start applying reverse. I ramp up the force on the anchor, as this gives the anchor an advantage especially in the initial stages when starting to set.
With a good anchor the success rate when doing this is very high. A pause after dropping would probably increase the success rate, but I anchor full time and the last time my anchor did not set first time was perhaps six months ago. Why bother waiting?
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Sybarite
Well-known member
If nothing else it "washes" the anchor.
Robin
Well-known member
if it was really dirty I often jiggled it up and down to clean it. One day I will try it with the anchor
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Noelox ! I have alway read you posting with interest , it make a chage to read personal experiences from someone who spend a lot of time anchoring on different sea bed and not on muddle river bed when almost any way you anchor will 98 % of the time will set .
I spend the first 8 years sailing the east coast in England , in that time I never seen a yacht drag we also never once drag , we used a CQR and I swear by it , no one could say anything bad about it , it was the best anchor ever , how naive I was , without a year of going off cruising and leaving the thick mud rivers of the east coast it was gone , I give it away .
So far this year we have anchored every day from April other then two days on a quay , and not many days go by that we don't see the , drop the anchor and go and have a cup of tea technic , a lot of the time by charter boats , over half the time anchors aren't check again , the owner or charters returned to the anchor when his about to leave or in most cases after a hour or so when another owner is yelling out to them there are dragging ,
It had to be said , it a bad way to anchor not taken account for their safety or anyone else , no matter what a few people on here say , this is mean no offence to any one , an anchor just sitting on the sea bed does nothing to help it set , it just sit there , we seen many over the years that have been lost or dump , just sitting there for God know how long . If your anchor won't set maybe you should look at the way you are trying to set or the anchor and tackle you are using .
So far this year we only been hit once by a dragging yacht , three times last year in Croatia , the Ionian three years ago we lost count , in most cases there wasn't any real wind to talk about , just bad anchoring , there not a week that don't go by that we see boats dragging , a lot of the time we know there a chance it going to happen because of the way there have just anchored , fenders and dinghy to proteck every part of the boat , the worst time for us is when it happens in the middle of the night because that became a very different situation ,
Inexperience skipper with no idea where there are in the dark or what to do , still half asleep , most just start up there engine and try and drive away make the situation worst , by getting warped around other chain or causing more damage then just a bump .
I suggest people on this and other thread only make light of it because there haven't woken up in the middle of the night by bad anchored , dragging not only them by you too towards a wall of rock .
We have three friend over the years that have lost every thing in these conditions
One who lost his wife too ,
I spend the first 8 years sailing the east coast in England , in that time I never seen a yacht drag we also never once drag , we used a CQR and I swear by it , no one could say anything bad about it , it was the best anchor ever , how naive I was , without a year of going off cruising and leaving the thick mud rivers of the east coast it was gone , I give it away .
So far this year we have anchored every day from April other then two days on a quay , and not many days go by that we don't see the , drop the anchor and go and have a cup of tea technic , a lot of the time by charter boats , over half the time anchors aren't check again , the owner or charters returned to the anchor when his about to leave or in most cases after a hour or so when another owner is yelling out to them there are dragging ,
It had to be said , it a bad way to anchor not taken account for their safety or anyone else , no matter what a few people on here say , this is mean no offence to any one , an anchor just sitting on the sea bed does nothing to help it set , it just sit there , we seen many over the years that have been lost or dump , just sitting there for God know how long . If your anchor won't set maybe you should look at the way you are trying to set or the anchor and tackle you are using .
So far this year we only been hit once by a dragging yacht , three times last year in Croatia , the Ionian three years ago we lost count , in most cases there wasn't any real wind to talk about , just bad anchoring , there not a week that don't go by that we see boats dragging , a lot of the time we know there a chance it going to happen because of the way there have just anchored , fenders and dinghy to proteck every part of the boat , the worst time for us is when it happens in the middle of the night because that became a very different situation ,
Inexperience skipper with no idea where there are in the dark or what to do , still half asleep , most just start up there engine and try and drive away make the situation worst , by getting warped around other chain or causing more damage then just a bump .
I suggest people on this and other thread only make light of it because there haven't woken up in the middle of the night by bad anchored , dragging not only them by you too towards a wall of rock .
We have three friend over the years that have lost every thing in these conditions
One who lost his wife too ,
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sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Just as I finished my last posting a yacht has just anchored lucky for us just behind us ,
Depth is around 4 mts hI would say have dropped 10 maybe 12 mts the very most conditions at the moment , no wind, totally still , thundering can be heard , forecaster for to day NW four increasing to a six , his done nothing to set his anchor ,just drop and returned back to the cockpit , who would like to bet me his still going to be there in a few hours .
I feel sorry for the two yachts that are behind him .
Depth is around 4 mts hI would say have dropped 10 maybe 12 mts the very most conditions at the moment , no wind, totally still , thundering can be heard , forecaster for to day NW four increasing to a six , his done nothing to set his anchor ,just drop and returned back to the cockpit , who would like to bet me his still going to be there in a few hours .
I feel sorry for the two yachts that are behind him .
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noelex
Well-known member
This is a very common story. There are many anchors like the CQR that work beautifully in a medium soft substrate. People that anchor regularly in these sort of substrates cannot understand why there is so much fuss about anchors. They are convinced that owners who claim the CQR is not a great anchor must have a poor technique.
I think you have to see with own eyes (preferably underwater) a CQR's lack of performances in a hard substrate.
Dropping the anchor and just leaving it as the Bruce owner did in the photo I posted is fortunately becoming less common. I agree it is not a great technique.
However, most of the time the anchor will set itself. As the wind gradually rises (which it usually does) the gradual increase in force is exactly the same as applying reverse with the engine and setting the anchor. In some ways it seems a bit better the jerky nature of the force naturally produced by the wind seems to set the anchor better than the steady state force of the engine.
However, there are some problems with not setting the anchor. If the wind rises suddenly a high force can be rapidly applied to a totally unset anchor. Anchors set most reliably in the initial stages with a gradual increase in force. Once moving (dragging) anchors are reluctant to start to dig in. The second problem is that you have no test of the substrate. Even on an ideal substrate your anchor can land on some bottom debris (even a dropped towel is enough) and refuse to work. Setting the anchor with reverse also provides a test that the anchor is working.
This dropping the anchor and not applying any force will still work on the vast majority of occasions, but we want anchoring to as close to 100% reliable as possible and setting the anchor with some reverse is more secure.
Note, not applying any force is quite different to the "pause for a cup of tea technique" as some have advocated on this thread. I have no problem with this technique, as the anchor is still set and tested. The pause does no harm and may well do some good for those anchors that are reluctant to set. My only comment about the technique is that with a good anchor it is not necessary.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Noelex
""However, there are some problems with not setting the anchor. If the wind rises suddenly a high force can be rapidly applied to a totally unset anchor. Anchors set most reliably in the initial stages with a gradual increase in force. Once moving (dragging) anchors are reluctant to start to dig in. The second problem is that you have no test of the substrate. Even on an ideal substrate your anchor can land on some bottom debris (even a dropped towel is enough) and refuse to work. Setting the anchor with reverse also provides a test that the anchor is working.""
This is the crunch of the problem with this way of anchoring , more then often this can happens in the middle of the night when the skipper is fast asleep and all hell is let lose .
The other very important comment you made was , "by doing this there no way of knowing how well an anchor is set , "
Some weeks back we anchored in Samos (20 kg Rocna , ) there was enough wind to push the boat back and tighting up the chain , our anchor seen to be holding ( holding not set , we could had left it to finish setting is self ) a little power and all seems ok , it only after we added more power that we start to move , we lifting the anchor we found a net , it blow hard that night , it we didn't add that extra power we wouldn't had known about the net , no doubt we would had drag .
In all fairness I have to say we too have try this drop and wait in the pass , but very quickly come to realise to have any knowledge what's happen down below dropping and leave isn't the way .
Again thanks for your posting , keep them coming always interesting to read .
""However, there are some problems with not setting the anchor. If the wind rises suddenly a high force can be rapidly applied to a totally unset anchor. Anchors set most reliably in the initial stages with a gradual increase in force. Once moving (dragging) anchors are reluctant to start to dig in. The second problem is that you have no test of the substrate. Even on an ideal substrate your anchor can land on some bottom debris (even a dropped towel is enough) and refuse to work. Setting the anchor with reverse also provides a test that the anchor is working.""
This is the crunch of the problem with this way of anchoring , more then often this can happens in the middle of the night when the skipper is fast asleep and all hell is let lose .
The other very important comment you made was , "by doing this there no way of knowing how well an anchor is set , "
Some weeks back we anchored in Samos (20 kg Rocna , ) there was enough wind to push the boat back and tighting up the chain , our anchor seen to be holding ( holding not set , we could had left it to finish setting is self ) a little power and all seems ok , it only after we added more power that we start to move , we lifting the anchor we found a net , it blow hard that night , it we didn't add that extra power we wouldn't had known about the net , no doubt we would had drag .
In all fairness I have to say we too have try this drop and wait in the pass , but very quickly come to realise to have any knowledge what's happen down below dropping and leave isn't the way .
Again thanks for your posting , keep them coming always interesting to read .
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
BUT THERE DO ....every day of the week ..... Come away from you your home ground and you will see . What do you think happened in the photo Noelex posted ?
On that note I leave it to you to carry on the debate I for one have better things to do .
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
I have no doubt that some people do this, but nobody on this thread has suggested it.