Delta to Rocna - is it worth it - three specific questions

doug748

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Manson copied Rocna. The concept makes so much sense that it'll become commonplace.


Many of them look like copies of CQRs to me, albeit with a rusted up hinge.

If we could just reach critical velocity we could get an anchor thread to run forever, like a satellite or The Mousetrap.
 

Robin

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What is being confirmed is generally not the effectiveness of the anchor but the validity of the expenditure. People are very averse to thinking "I spent £500 on a new anchor/sail/laptop/shower/suit/set of dentures/<anything> but really it's turned out to be no better than the old one."



Nobody doubts that modern anchors work better than older ones, but that leaves open the possibility that older ones work well enough for some people.

Exactly. Once you are anchored and staying put the job is done, You don't think two days later 'hey I could have been anchored twice as well with a Heineken or three times as well with a Carlsberg.' Or is it 'I am a lousy anchorer , it must be my anchor's fault , so let's spend some money and join the evangelists' A New Bentley might be, certainly would be, better than a 1980 Ford but if the Ford still gets you to work everyday why bankrupt yourself buying a Bentley?

There is now a huge number of folk who rarely anchor anywhere anyway, but cruise marina to marina, that now think they cannot/dare not anchor unless they have a) the latest newgen, as featured in an underwater slideshow and b) an anchor dragging APP on both their phone and tablet.

IF I inherited a newgen with a new boat I would not change it either, doesn't prove or disprove anything, just it's place on the priority list.

Soon somebody will post how insurers will refuse cover if a boat drags and is damaged, unless the anchor was at least a newgen mk1. Or that any enquiry would automatically find against an owner using an oldgen.

Evolution is fine, Indoctrination by the converted gets tiresome, just like when the JWs knock at the door and want a chat.
 
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vyv_cox

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Just curious why only the Rocna (or occasionally Manson Supreme) is mentioned as NG anchor; the Kobra came out top in one PBO test but is priced like Delta .or less

I don't think your first statement is correct. In my 'anchors and anchoring' talk I try to define NG anchors by certain common characteristics. They are all concave and have been designed with emphasis on tip weight to maximise setting capability. Some but not all have roll bars. I include Spade, Rocna, Manson Supreme, Ultra, Mantus, Vulcan, several others. Bugel maybe.

Kobra is a plough, not a NG. The test you mention was French, reprinted in PBO. Most people find it inconceivable that a plough would outperform a Spade, for example, which suggests that the test was flawed. I have nothing against the Kobra, except that anchors built down to a price achieve their low cost by savings in, for example, heat treatment. The shank is slender and soft, as shown in a recent thread. Plough anchors are perfectly acceptable to many users, a good compromise between cost and effectiveness.
 

JumbleDuck

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I'm sure I recall that the Bugel was the first with a rollbar even before the Rocna.

I do beg your pardon. I was confusing it with the Spade. Yes, the Bügel is indeed be-rollbared, so the Rocna's distinction shrinks to "having an obnoxious spokesman", He was very obnoxious, though.
 

Seven Spades

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I do beg your pardon. I was confusing it with the Spade. Yes, the Bügel is indeed be-rollbared, so the Rocna's distinction shrinks to "having an obnoxious spokesman", He was very obnoxious, though.

I remember him, he popped up in every anchor thread and promoted the Rocna and I think that his contribution really helped to put Rocna on the map and lead to a lot of sales. It was only subsequently when things started to go wrong that he became very annoying and his terrible habit of running down his competitors rather then just promoting his products. Thankfully those days are behind us now and the people running the business seem to be a decent bunch.
 

jordanbasset

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I don't think your first statement is correct. In my 'anchors and anchoring' talk I try to define NG anchors by certain common characteristics. They are all concave and have been designed with emphasis on tip weight to maximise setting capability. Some but not all have roll bars. I include Spade, Rocna, Manson Supreme, Ultra, Mantus, Vulcan, several others. Bugel maybe.

Kobra is a plough, not a NG. The test you mention was French, reprinted in PBO. Most people find it inconceivable that a plough would outperform a Spade, for example, which suggests that the test was flawed. I have nothing against the Kobra, except that anchors built down to a price achieve their low cost by savings in, for example, heat treatment. The shank is slender and soft, as shown in a recent thread. Plough anchors are perfectly acceptable to many users, a good compromise between cost and effectiveness.

In addition to the report referenced ( http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/Anchor Tests/Yachting Monthly -Anchor Test Nov09.pdf )

Also found this anchor test, which like the one above also seemed comprehensive
http://www.mysailing.com.au/news/testing-the-new-generation-of-anchors

'All anchors are a compromise. In sand all anchors perform well excepting the Cooper that we could not get to set at all, the fisherman which had no capacity (and would not even set in weed) and CQR, which has difficulty re-setting when subjected to change in load orientation. Of the rest in sand all anchors set well and had the ability to reorientate to a change of load direction of both 90 and 180 degrees. There seemed little difference in performance although the anchors with protruding soles, the Kobra, Spade and Ultra, seemed to perform better in the 90-degree turns. The major difference is holding capacity and if you are to anchor under arduous conditions an anchor with higher holding capacity like the Kobra, Spade, Ultra, Supreme, Rocna and the two SARCAs looks the better option. In hard seabeds there might be question marks over the Ray and Claw which with care you might get to set, but might not re-set if forced to re-orientate through 180 degrees but on balance the Ray seemed to perform better — though both do not have high holding capacity. In seabeds capable of high compaction then the concave anchors perform well in 90 degree turns but might have choked and be unable to re-set if forced into a 180-degree turn.
Anchors are a very personal choice and owners buy for reasons that are sometimes ill defined. But for those whose preference lies to a concave design the Supreme looks a good all-round performer and is backed by Lloyds Register certification. For those who are part of the “plough” camp, of the convex anchors the Delta is an adequate performer, but low holding capacity, and the Kobra and two SARCAs look a better bet. The Super SARCA and SARCA Excel also enjoy accreditation from Australia’s National Marine Safety Committee. The Kobra works very well but must remain on the sidelines — if only because the shank seems a bit flimsy and no detail is given of shank construction (both the Supreme and Excel are engineered from high-tensile steel of declared quality).'

The test is worthy of a read for anyone interested, it certainly confirms my evidence from using the Kobra in anchoring in a variety of sea beds and in differing weather situations that is is a very good anchor that does the job.
As to the Kobra being slender and soft we never managed to bend it in the 4 1/2 years we used it, but am sure it is possible, I've seen the pictures on here, most things are. Some where on the YBW Forum I am also sure I have even seen a picture of a spade anchor with a bent shaft. I suppose the difference is that it is a lot cheaper to replace the Kobra
 
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RAI

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Sybarite

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I don't think your first statement is correct. In my 'anchors and anchoring' talk I try to define NG anchors by certain common characteristics. They are all concave and have been designed with emphasis on tip weight to maximise setting capability. Some but not all have roll bars. I include Spade, Rocna, Manson Supreme, Ultra, Mantus, Vulcan, several others. Bugel maybe.

Kobra is a plough, not a NG. The test you mention was French, reprinted in PBO. Most people find it inconceivable that a plough would outperform a Spade, for example, which suggests that the test was flawed. I have nothing against the Kobra, except that anchors built down to a price achieve their low cost by savings in, for example, heat treatment. The shank is slender and soft, as shown in a recent thread. Plough anchors are perfectly acceptable to many users, a good compromise between cost and effectiveness.

In tests published in French magazines the Kobra was rated good value for money. In a test published by "Voile" it resisted a straight traction of around 1000kg. Otoh, the Brittany Roc which bears a ressemblence to the Kobra resisted over 2000kg. Their comment was that that the Rocna was about in the same league as the Roc but the Roc was French made.
Nevertheless Spade consistently comes out tops.

Why, for the relatively small difference in price would anybody want less than the best? It's the ultimate last ditch safety device.
 

doug748

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Nice to see the cheap-as-chips Buegel anchor included. Of course riddled with warnings about the SS one being expensive and watch out for copies.
http://www.svb.de/de/buegel-anker-stahl-verzinkt.html
If it costs less than 400 squids, it won't work, etc..


Very good, you link to a sensibly priced product but I guess that it is a copy of the type the article is warning about? Or is it the real thing? Is there a real thing - I had some idea that the Buegel was a sort of open source design and anyone could have a go. Does anyone know?

The region of 100 quid is a sensible price for a simple bit of fabrication.
 

vyv_cox

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Very good, you link to a sensibly priced product but I guess that it is a copy of the type the article is warning about? Or is it the real thing? Is there a real thing - I had some idea that the Buegel was a sort of open source design and anyone could have a go. Does anyone know?

The region of 100 quid is a sensible price for a simple bit of fabrication.

I have seen anchors advertised as 'delta type' or even just 'delta' that were little more than half that price. You can guarantee that they were made from low carbon steel plate with very low tensile properties. Some of the copies I have seen in chandleries and in boatyards were very poorly constructed, looking something like a Delta but clearly lacking in geometry. The construction steel of a Delta is roughly twice as strong as a mild steel, although nowhere near as strong as a Rocna or Manson. Heat treatment and special construction techniques cost money!

I believe you are correct about the Bugel (WASI). Its design is freely available for anyone to make.
 

RAI

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Very good, you link to a sensibly priced product but I guess that it is a copy of the type the article is warning about? Or is it the real thing? Is there a real thing - I had some idea that the Buegel was a sort of open source design and anyone could have a go. Does anyone know?
The region of 100 quid is a sensible price for a simple bit of fabrication.
+1
I would trust svb to sell good ones
 

BelleSerene

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Exactly. Once you are anchored and staying put the job is done

Not at all. The moment the tide changes your boat is anchoring itself all over again, except this time without a skipper playing with reverse gear and nervously checking transit lines. The ability to REset reliably and in a short distance is critical. Which new-gen anchors do far better than non-concave models.
 

noelex

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Not at all. The moment the tide changes your boat is anchoring itself all over again, except this time without a skipper playing with reverse gear and nervously checking transit lines. The ability to REset reliably and in a short distance is critical. Which new-gen anchors do far better than non-concave models.

If the anchor is well set in the first place, the substrate is reasonable and the anchor is a model that rotates well the anchor will not usually break out with a change in direction of pull.

The better anchors will normally remain with their fluke buried and rotate around a single spot.

They usually develop a list (depending on the model), which reduces the level of grip slightly during rotation, but the better anchors remain very secure.

Current force alone is not usually enough to cause the anchor to rotate. Even if the boat and chain move to the other side of the swing circle, the anchor will remain in the original orientation unless there is some wind force reinforcing the current.

Here are some progressive shots of my Mantus anchor rotating or "shuffling" while remaining completely set. There are some stones that I dropped on the bottom to act as a reference mark.I have attached a lot of photos, as it really helps to see what the anchor is doing underwater:

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bbg

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Excellent and interesting photos. I find it hard to believe that a CQR or a Delta would ever bury that deep, let alone stay buried and rotate when subjected to a change of direction.
 
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Excellent and interesting photos. I find it hard to believe that a CQR or a Delta would ever bury that deep, let alone stay buried and rotate when subjected to a change of direction.
We have been cruising the south and west coasts of Sardinia this season and certainly our 60kg Delta does indeed bury itself to the same extent in the sandy seabed strata which are common there and stay buried when there is a change of wind direction. We are a 63ft mobo with a lot of windage and I have been impressed by how well the Delta has performed, particularly in the windy conditions which have prevailed during the last 2 weeks. The only times when I have been a little concerned is when the seabed has been weedy but then I'm not sure that any anchor performs well in these conditions

Notwithstanding, I am going to try one of the New Gen anchors next season for comparison and keep the Delta onboard as a spare.
 

Sybarite

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We have been cruising the south and west coasts of Sardinia this season and certainly our 60kg Delta does indeed bury itself to the same extent in the sandy seabed strata which are common there and stay buried when there is a change of wind direction. We are a 63ft mobo with a lot of windage and I have been impressed by how well the Delta has performed, particularly in the windy conditions which have prevailed during the last 2 weeks. The only times when I have been a little concerned is when the seabed has been weedy but then I'm not sure that any anchor performs well in these conditions

Notwithstanding, I am going to try one of the New Gen anchors next season for comparison and keep the Delta onboard as a spare.

In the tests the Delta performed well except that sometimes it had difficulty in resetting after a change in direction.
 

Robin

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Not at all. The moment the tide changes your boat is anchoring itself all over again, except this time without a skipper playing with reverse gear and nervously checking transit lines. The ability to REset reliably and in a short distance is critical. Which new-gen anchors do far better than non-concave models.

My primary consideration on picking my spots to anchor is the wind strength and direction, actual and predicted. I avoid strong tide /current areas and especially if likely to oppose the wind. breaking out and resetting by current change alone is unusual in practice unless you are in exceptionally strong current flows. Years of sleeping well at anchor with half an ear and all senses subconsciously listening for anything 'odd' has probably fine tuned my senses to know when to take an opportune piddle and check around from up on deck. I would no doubt continue to do the same were I to have a new-gen. Maybe a new-gen, phone drag app really is set and forget for allsituations and all people, but I'm a dinosaur and may not find out.:p
 
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