Delta to Rocna - is it worth it - three specific questions

[Robin]

I have no doubt that some people do this, but nobody on this thread has suggested it.

I would find this thread easier to follow in 'English' English I think, (observation not criticism)

There is a great deal also to be gained from 'defensive' anchoring as in choosing a location with no suspect draggers upwind or up 'expected wind' then setting your own anchor in the best way possible and testing it under gradually applied hard astern. If in doubt relocate, however attractive the onshore bars and tavernas might be!

BTW I have never anchored on the east coast of the UK and I now have no intention whatsoever of doing so in the eastern Med either. Oddly some American friends who returned from 3 years in the Med last year with their boat offered to give me their 45lb CQR, bought for the trip, as they no longer need it.:biggrin-new:

 

[JumbleDuck]

I would find this thread easier to follow in 'English' English I think, (observation not criticism)

I agree. Our friend claims to be dyslexic London born-and-bred, but his grammar seems consistent and very un-English.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I agree. Our friend claims to be dyslexic London born-and-bred, but his grammar seems consistent and very un-English.

Let's put this to the test , would you like to PM me your telephone number , ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I would find this thread easier to follow in 'English' English I think, (observation not criticism)

There is a great deal also to be gained from 'defensive' anchoring as in choosing a location with no suspect draggers upwind or up 'expected wind' then setting your own anchor in the best way possible and testing it under gradually applied hard astern. If in doubt relocate, however attractive the onshore bars and tavernas might be!

BTW I have never anchored on the east coast of the UK and I now have no intention whatsoever of doing so in the eastern Med either. Oddly some American friends who returned from 3 years in the Med last year with their boat offered to give me their 45lb CQR, bought for the trip, as they no longer need it.:biggrin-new:

Robin I think you find the reason they offered to give you there CQR is because , there are as good as a bucket with an hole in if your cruising .
I dont know where you cruise or if you cruise but you very rarely see a boat that cruising having a CQR for an anchor , four boats was trying to give them away in the marina this winter, they ended up as ornaments in the bar .

 

[dunedin]

Nobody. Has. Suggested. Drop. And. Leave.

+1

No idea why sailaboutvic etc have gone off on a tangent, nothing to do with this thread. Seems to think other posters are wet behind the ears novices

 

[Robin]

Robin I think you find the reason they offered to give you there CQR is because , there are as good as a bucket with an hole in if your cruising .
I dont know where you cruise or if you cruise but you very rarely see a boat that cruising having a CQR for an anchor , four boats was trying to give them away in the marina this winter, they ended up as ornaments in the bar .

That CQR was a genuine forged one but needed re-galvanising and they were moving off via Panama to Mexico, thence to a new home in southern California He offered it to me as I had just ordered a brand new Delta , together with 150ft of 3/8 inch(10mm) HT chain , to replace the 'dock queen' set up we inherited with our current boat from the previous owner, a 15kg polished stainless steel Lewmar Claw with just 30ft of rusty 3/8 cheapo Chinese chain and 150ft of frayed nylon. When we didn't want the CQR they left it in the marina office and apparently people were fighting over it within hours when word got round it was a give away. They were using a 35lb Delta on their Doug Peterson designed 41footer as the replacement for the giveaway CQR, that Delta anchor was used as their main one when in Europe, they cruised the whole med, plus Atlantic France, Spain and the UK, they even spent time in London. but not on the hook mind. WE had a similar sized Delta on our ( also Doug Peterson designed) 41 footer back in the UK and that boat and anchor did 3year stint in the Med too,it also had a CqR but the people we bought from decided to keep that and sell the boat with the Delta which we used for another 10 years before we sold the boat. Having had success with the 35lb Delta on the 41 footer, we chose with confidence a 45 pounder for our current Beneteau 36 footer but our cruising grounds now ( East Coast USA and Intracoastal Waterway, plus Florida Keys, Bahamas, Abacos, and Exumas. We also carry a Fortress for soft mud if we find it. All our cruising area is shallow ( aka Skinny) so it is easy to put out a good ratio of rode. amongst our new cruser friends, Deltas are by far the most popular, with a smattering of ancient CQRs but very few newgens ( yet)

I think I said earlier, if money were no object ( it IS) I would probably opt for a Spade which at least would fit o our current boat's bow. We would have needed to replace the bow roller to use a Rocna but in any even the price of one or a Spade in the USA at the time was such that we could buy a Delta two whole sizes bigger for the same money, even though we actually chose to go just one size up from35lbs to 45lbs, the rest of the money saved went towards all new and longer chain.. The bigger Delta sits nicely on the bowroller and self launches and recovers when asked. I have a second set of windlass controls fitted back at the wheel too plus the usual ones on the foredeck..

Our cruising is more limited I guess than it used to be, when we averaged 2000nms /year but then we are just a pair of aging wrinklies and I had a stroke some 3 years back when we were living/cruising aboard our then 47 foot trawler motor yacht (with a 65lb Claw) after which we downsized back to sail again and a condo on dirt, overlooking a local anchorage which of course I watch closely . I would dive on our anchor and take pics but we have alligators in the ICW, sharks in the open ocean and even sting rays to contend with so I will pass on that if I may. :disgust:

 

[jordanbasset]

I like to keep things simple when I anchor. I drop the hook, wait for it to hit the bottom then pay out more chain while reversing slowly. When I have sufficient chain out I increase the revs slowly building up to 2,500 revs. Hold it there for a few seconds to see it has held.
If so switch off the engine, made myself a nice cup of tea, maybe a bite to eat. Maybe a swim, maybe a read or even a beer, maybe go ashore for pleasure or supplies.
Cannot see the point of dropping an anchor and leaving it for 20 minutes or so, if you do this on hardpacked sand it will do nothing but lie on the sand, barely making an impression let alone digging in. Do people switch the engine off during this 20 minutes and restart it when they need to dig the anchor in 20 minutes later.
Of course if it is blowing a hoolie when you anchor the wind will do it for you.
Like others my experience is some do not understand the basics of how an anchor works, especially in hard packed sand etc. Have seen no end of boats who anchor in pleasant conditions, there may be even a little bit of wind, they may even use a little throttle, but often not enough, resulting in when the wind does get up some are to be seen drifting back at quite a speed. They may get lucky and if the wind builds gradually the anchor will probably dig itself in, but you some times get sudden gusts which stops the anchor digging in properly and unfortunately these gusts do often come at night or when the sun is setting causing more confusion.
Proviso If you are ancohring in thick gluey mud virtually any technique will work

 

[Robin]

I like to keep things simple when I anchor. I drop the hook, wait for it to hit the bottom then pay out more chain while reversing slowly. When I have sufficient chain out I increase the revs slowly building up to 2,500 revs. Hold it there for a few seconds to see it has held.
If so switch off the engine, made myself a nice cup of tea, maybe a bite to eat. Maybe a swim, maybe a read or even a beer, maybe go ashore for pleasure or supplies.
Cannot see the point of dropping an anchor and leaving it for 20 minutes or so, if you do this on hardpacked sand it will do nothing but lie on the sand, barely making an impression let alone digging in. Do people switch the engine off during this 20 minutes and restart it when they need to dig the anchor in 20 minutes later.
Of course if it is blowing a hoolie when you anchor the wind will do it for you.
Like others my experience is some do not understand the basics of how an anchor works, especially in hard packed sand etc. Have seen no end of boats who anchor in pleasant conditions, there may be even a little bit of wind, they may even use a little throttle, but often not enough, resulting in when the wind does get up some are to be seen drifting back at quite a speed. They may get lucky and if the wind builds gradually the anchor will probably dig itself in, but you some times get sudden gusts which stops the anchor digging in properly and unfortunately these gusts do often come at night or when the sun is setting causing more confusion.
Proviso If you are ancohring in thick gluey mud virtually any technique will work

Pretty much our routine, only engage a little reverse to start the boat moving enough to straighten the chain, then gradually apply some more rpm astern whilst watching a transit to see we are truly stopped then full astern for a minute or two, still watching the transit before reducing rpm gradually back to tickover and shutting it down, too sudden cessation of reverse pull and the boat would shoot forward as if on elastic.. Last task is to fit the snubber line and slacken off some chain to hang in a slack loop with all the boat end load on the snubber line, or lines now aswe use a bridle, with rubber dog bone mooring compensators in each arm. FInish mug of fresh filtered coffee served as we approached the anchorge, make closing log entries, tidy up sails, put on sail covers( not since we bought a boat with in-mast mainsail), then see if afternoon tiffin is on offer, before or after a swim/shower, otherwise read book and doze in cockpit in the shade of the bimini. Do any joblist chores needed befor next departure, listen to any relevant forecasts. Move and repeat as needed when defensive anchoring suggests the latest new arrival is too close especially if upwind or from where expected wind is from, Once all is in order, light barbie if my turn to cook, cook, eat and enjoy. Not allowed (SWMBO RULES OK) alcohol any more after my stroke but a glass of ice cold black cherry flavoured fizzy water is nice or even a non-alcoholic wine

 

[jordanbasset]

Pretty much our routine, only engage a little reverse to start the boat moving enough to straighten the chain, then gradually apply some more rpm astern whilst watching a transit to see we are truly stopped then full astern for a minute or two, still watching the transit before reducing rpm gradually back to tickover and shutting it down, too sudden cessation of reverse pull and the boat would shoot forward as if on elastic.. Last task is to fit the snubber line and slacken off some chain to hang in a slack loop with all the boat end load on the snubber line, or lines now aswe use a bridle, with rubber dog bone mooring compensators in each arm. FInish mug of fresh filtered coffee served as we approached the anchorge, make closing log entries, tidy up sails, put on sail covers( not since we bought a boat with in-mast mainsail), then see if afternoon tiffin is on offer, before or after a swim/shower, otherwise read book and doze in cockpit in the shade of the bimini. Do any joblist chores needed befor next departure, listen to any relevant forecasts. Move and repeat as needed when defensive anchoring suggests the latest new arrival is too close especially if upwind or from where expected wind is from, Once all is in order, light barbie if my turn to cook, cook, eat and enjoy. Not allowed (SWMBO RULES OK) alcohol any more after my stroke but a glass of ice cold black cherry flavoured fizzy water is nice or even a non-alcoholic wine

Brings it all back, hopefully by this time next year will be back on the water

 

[dunedin]

AN UPDATE ........

So further to this post, we are now lying to a new Rocna anchor.

Stopped by Ardfern who are Rocna dealers and were very helpful. Was able to try on our bow roller both the original Rocna and the new (Vulcan?) design without the roll-bar. Fortunately the original did fit, with a slight adjustment - and interestingly for our particular boat the curved shank of the new style didn't fit as well (though will work for others).

No space to carry the old Delta so now we are a two Rocna boat - with the old 15kg Rocna staying in its role as kedge

Initial views positive - does seem to set much quicker. And some on here will be pleased to know that we are now able to put full reverse on to set BEFORE we put the kettle on !

Thanks all for your responses. And if anybody in Scotland wants a low mileage Delta 20kg speak to Ardfern

 

[30boat]

AN UPDATE ........

So further to this post, we are now lying to a new Rocna anchor.

Stopped by Ardfern who are Rocna dealers and were very helpful. Was able to try on our bow roller both the original Rocna and the new (Vulcan?) design without the roll-bar. Fortunately the original did fit, with a slight adjustment - and interestingly for our particular boat the curved shank of the new style didn't fit as well (though will work for others).

No space to carry the old Delta so now we are a two Rocna boat - with the old 15kg Rocna staying in its role as kedge

Initial views positive - does seem to set much quicker. And some on here will be pleased to know that we are now able to put full reverse on to set BEFORE we put the kettle on !

Thanks all for your responses. And if anybody in Scotland wants a low mileage Delta 20kg speak to Ardfern

My new cross between a Spade and an Ultra that I posted about recently sets so quickly it's amazing. And it conforms very well to the bow roller.

 

[Seven Spades]

The easy way to answer this is have you ever heard of people changing their Rocna for an old style anchor? The simple truth is that the new designs are just better I don't think it matters if you but Rocna, Manson or Spade they are all of a superior design. I have a Rocna and I would immediately specify another one if I changed my boat. I never worry at anchor, and peace of mind is everything.

 

[Robin]

The easy way to answer this is have you ever heard of people changing their Rocna for an old style anchor? The simple truth is that the new designs are just better I don't think it matters if you but Rocna, Manson or Spade they are all of a superior design. I have a Rocna and I would immediately specify another one if I changed my boat. I never worry at anchor, and peace of mind is everything.

Plenty however have chosen to stay with what they have. In our case we renewed our ground tackle on our boat on purchase, removing a 35lb claw ( expensive stainless steel one too) and 50ft of chain plus 150ft warp. In it's place we put 150ft of chain and a 45lb Delta. The Delta is one size up from what is generally recommended for our now 36 footer and from what we used very successfully for many years on a 41 footer when we lived and cruised UK/Europe. I never worry at anchor either, never have, even in the days when we used CQRs, both genuine and copies on variety of boats. Very possibly we could 'set' a newgen anchor faster but I have never had a problem setting nor dragging in the places we anchored in the past or do now. I was very tempted to buy a Spade until I saw the price of them in the USA where we live and cruise now, a Rocna was affordable, as they are still discounted after the Chinese bendy shank issue, but it would not fit on our existing bow roller or even close. The Delta even at one size up sits very nicely on our existing bow roller and is also the anchor of choice most favoured by boats in our home marina and that cruise and anchor the same areas where we do these days,

So you are correct that not many people ever go back from a new generation design, but then nobody much went back to CQRs etc from Deltas either. It may well be an accurate statement but it is not necessarily a definitive vote winner.

It may be that our choice is no more than just 'adequate' and not 'perfect' but I have no reason to doubt that it is going to work when it needs to, just likeit always did for us in the past

BTW we have bright polished 33lb Lewmar Claw for sale ( $400) but collection from Florida only, for obvious reasons. it is actually brand spanking new as the original one was 'lost' by a contractor during our refit and he had to replace it at my insistence even though we knew that we were going to replace it anyway. I had intended keeping it as a spare but it is too cumbersome to stow below decks on board and doesn't fit in any of our deck lockers. We also carry a Fortress aluminium anchor as a reserve.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So you are correct that not many people ever go back from a new generation design, but then nobody much went back to CQRs etc from Deltas either.

Few people every go back from anything they have spent substantial money on to the thing they had before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[bbg]

Confirmation bias would apply equally to people who have a CQR and want to hear that it is just as good as a new gen anchor, as to those who have a new gen anchor and want to hear it is better than a CQR.

As I write this it occurred to me that I can't recall anyone say that a CQR is better than a new gen anchor, just that "it has served me well and is good enough for me". Whereas there are lots of posts from people saying they have switched and newer works better.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Confirmation bias would apply equally to people who have a CQR and want to hear that it is just as good as a new gen anchor, as to those who have a new gen anchor and want to hear it is better than a CQR.

What is being confirmed is generally not the effectiveness of the anchor but the validity of the expenditure. People are very averse to thinking "I spent £500 on a new anchor/sail/laptop/shower/suit/set of dentures/<anything> but really it's turned out to be no better than the old one."

As I write this it occurred to me that I can't recall anyone say that a CQR is better than a new gen anchor, just that "it has served me well and is good enough for me". Whereas there are lots of posts from people saying they have switched and newer works better.

Nobody doubts that modern anchors work better than older ones, but that leaves open the possibility that older ones work well enough for some people.

 

[vyv_cox]

What is being confirmed is generally not the effectiveness of the anchor but the validity of the expenditure. People are very averse to thinking "I spent £500 on a new anchor/sail/laptop/shower/suit/set of dentures/<anything> but really it's turned out to be no better than the old one."

I suppose some people are into self-delusion but in 2015 I have spent £25000 on a new car that I think is no better or a little worse than its predecessor (same make and model) and £3000 on hearing aids that perform exactly the same as the old ones, despite having all sorts of 'improving' features.

Whereas both my Delta and Rocna have proved to be a considerable improvement over the CQRs that preceded them.

 

[eddystone]

Just curious why only the Rocna (or occasionally Manson Supreme) is mentioned as NG anchor; the Kobra came out top in one PBO test but is priced like Delta .or less

 

[Birdseye]

I know, I know - not another anchor thread. Sorry.
But these things are important to peace of mind when reliant on the hook in bad weather (eg Scotland West coast where pontoons and moorings are a rarity)

We used a standard Bruce style (manufacturer fitted) then latterly a Rocna on our previous boat - and had no material issues or scares in 10 years. Drop, quick tug in reverse, forget.

New boat came with a 20kg Delta - but initial impressions are a bit mixed. Specifically of the first 4 or 5 uses, in light wind "lunch hook" conditions, it seemed to take a long distance to set - hopping along the bottom alarmingly with very little weight in it.
Latterly we have done a much more cautious approach - dropped, let boat lie back. But waited 15 minutes or so before very gently astern to see if setting.

Also, anchor came with a swivel - but 9 times out of 10 when lifting, unless get straight onto roller instantly, the balance of anchor seems to turn itself the wrong way round requiring contortions with boat hook to get right way and onto roller.

So wondering about whether it would be worth the substantial investment to swap a near new Delta for another Rocna. Anybody got direct experience of this specific move - specifically
A) would a Rocna set materially quicker / in less distance?
B) is there any material difference in ultimate grip when set properly ?
C) when using an anchor swivel, does a Rocna self rotate the right way to go on the roller ?

For info we have a heavy ish 38 footer, and have recently invested in 80m of 8mm chain in the locker.

PS Please don't give me lots of suggestions of other / better hooks. It's stay with Delta or move to Rocna.
And if anybody is downsizing and wants to swap a 20kg Rocna for a 15kg one let me know ;-)

Always been impressed with the way our Rocna and then Rocna copy Manson Supreme ( who copied who I dont know) bit in straight away.

 

[30boat]

Always been impressed with the way our Rocna and then Rocna copy Manson Supreme ( who copied who I dont know) bit in straight away.

Manson copied Rocna. The concept makes so much sense that it'll become commonplace.