Delta to Rocna - is it worth it - three specific questions

[sailaboutvic]

Get down off your high horse.

I drop the anchor and watch as the wind ranges the cable out to make sure I end up in the right place. Sometimes, because a multi lies differently to the lead mines, I pull up the anchor and try again. The key point is that I don't put the engines astern until the anchor has set itself. The time taken to drink a cup of tea is a good guide to ensure you don't do it too soon and jerk the anchor out as the rode comes tight.

I left all my high horses years ago . not sure where my high horse comes into it .
I asked a question which was , you drop the anchor and leave it to set it self . ?
We anchored of the South end of Lesvos , less then 30 mins ago we seen another boat do just that , they are now ashore , there boat was tangled to another british boat . It is now moor next to them awaiting for the owner to returned to sort out the damage .
Hopefully it isn't you .

 

[sailaboutvic]

In that case my CQR sets itself quite happily and very quickly. What does NOT work is lowering it and then instantly whacking the boat into full reverse.

Hi .
lowering any anchor and whacking in to full reverse , is a sure way of dragging the anchor alone the sea bed .

 

[bbg]

Hi .
lowering any anchor and whacking in to full reverse , is a sure way of dragging the anchor alone the sea bed .

That seems not to be the case with new generation anchors. OK "whacking it into full reverse" might be an exaggeration, but dropping it, paying out the right scope while idling in reverse, waiting for the rode to become taught then increasing the revs to full seems to be a successful way of setting new generation anchors and checking to make sure they are set.

I don't understand people who say that their anchor is fine because they have found a way of setting it that works. That is like saying their car starts fine because they have figured out the right combination of throttle and choke, and how long it has to warm up before putting the choke in. Just because you have found something that works doesn't mean that it is state of the art technology.

All tests and most anecdotal evidence from people who have used new gen anchors say that new gen anchors are superior - at ease of setting, setting quicker and ultimate holding once set.

I don't know why there is even any discussion about this any more.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't understand people who say that their anchor is fine because they have found a way of setting it that works. That is like saying their car starts fine because they have figured out the right combination of throttle and choke, and how long it has to warm up before putting the choke in. Just because you have found something that works doesn't mean that it is state of the art technology.

All tests and most anecdotal evidence from people who have used new gen anchors say that new gen anchors are superior - at ease of setting, setting quicker and ultimate holding once set.

I don't know why there is even any discussion about this any more.

Nobody doubts that a modern anchor works better than an older one, just as nobody doubts that modern cars work better than older ones. However, the older car (my 1999 Golf or the older anchor (my CQR) may still work well enough, in which case there is no need to replace it.

 

[sailaboutvic]

That seems not to be the case with new generation anchors. OK "whacking it into full reverse" might be an exaggeration, but dropping it, paying out the right scope while idling in reverse, waiting for the rode to become taught then increasing the revs to full seems to be a successful way of setting new generation anchors and checking to make sure they are set.

I don't understand people who say that their anchor is fine because they have found a way of setting it that works. That is like saying their car starts fine because they have figured out the right combination of throttle and choke, and how long it has to warm up before putting the choke in. Just because you have found something that works doesn't mean that it is state of the art technology.

All tests and most anecdotal evidence from people who have used new gen anchors say that new gen anchors are superior - at ease of setting, setting quicker and ultimate holding once set.

I don't know why there is even any discussion about this any more.

Bbq you have just describe the best way of setting an anchor " but dropping it, paying out the right scope while idling in reverse, waiting for the rode to become taught then increasing the revs to full seems to be a successful way of setting new generation anchors and checking to make sure they are set." it a shame some still thing dropping it and going off to make a cup of tea is a better way , I don't have any objections to people just dropping they chain and going off to do what every as long as they don't do in near me . Snowleoped talks about me getting on my high horses , well if he been damaged and woken up in the middle of the night has many time has we have by people doing what he suggest I think he too would be on his high horse .
The other thing people never seen to take into consideration when anchoring , which isn't talked about much , is where they will end up once there anchor is set . If people put a bit more thorought into where there anchor and how , then we all be happier and safer .

 

[Robin]

Nobody doubts that a modern anchor works better than an older one, just as nobody doubts that modern cars work better than older ones. However, the older car (my 1999 Golf or the older anchor (my CQR) may still work well enough, in which case there is no need to replace it.

+1 And despite having all these new gen anchors they still want anchor drag detection Apps on their smartphones!

 

[doug748]

My Bruce got very rusty but every time I selected a replacement it came out badly in some new test or another. The lot. of them. The new generation cup was dashed from my lips.

In the end I got the old faithful re-galvanized.

FWIW I always use Snowleopard's cup of tea method, normally without undue drama.

 

[bbg]

Nobody doubts that a modern anchor works better than an older one, just as nobody doubts that modern cars work better than older ones. However, the older car (my 1999 Golf or the older anchor (my CQR) may still work well enough, in which case there is no need to replace it.

Except we are not comparing a 1999 Golf with a 2015 Golf. We are comparing a Model T Ford with a 1999 Golf.

 

[JumbleDuck]

it a shame some still thing dropping it and going off to make a cup of tea is a better way

Are you persistently misrepresenting snowleopard out of misunderstanding or out of malice? He wrote "Drop it, have a leisurely cup of tea and then give it a bit of reverse" which is clearly not the same as your repeated claim. You owe him an apology.

 

[Robin]

The other thing people never seen to take into consideration when anchoring which isn't talked about much , is where they will end up once there anchor is set . If some took put a bit more thorough into where there anchor and how then we all be happier and safe

That is so very true and comes under the same heading of learning sound anchoring techniques. by that I mean the full version not the short cut, 'go buy a newgen Rocnamantuspade' and all is well anytime anywhere version.

I think it is unfair to jump on Snowleopard too because he used a simple parable to illustrate a gently gently before employing tuggy tuggy approach, I suspect you read something into that tale that was not intended and certainly not seen in it by me. Generation gap here maybe?
We too have had our share of midnight waltzers over the years and I have had harsh words for them too before learning to chill out and enjoy life. ( SWMBO just said Yeah right!) We have often moved away if genuinely concerned rather than restart WW2, then watched from a safe distance.

I do wonder also if much of the anchoring angst reported is Eastern Med related and wonder if it is or isn't a truly universal problem.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Are you persistently misrepresenting snowleopard out of misunderstanding or out of malice? He wrote "Drop it, have a leisurely cup of tea and then give it a bit of reverse" which is clearly not the same as your repeated claim. You owe him an apology.

My first reply was to ask Snowleopard two question ,
1 asking him if I understood him correctly that he drops his anchor and goes off and have a cup of tea .
The second question is , what happens if it blow say 15 kts , does he still do the same . Because Why he is having his tea his yacht could now be dragging back at some speed if it hasn't set it self .

I also said I wasn't being rule to him and then when on to explain what our experiences our of people who do this .
It was snowleopard who then came Back and told me to get of my high horse , still not answering any of the question .
I ask of him to help me understand why he and others anchors in this way . I even put a smile in there to show it wasn't any malice involved .
If snowleopard is offended by what I wrote , I be happy to hear from him ,
And he can tell me why he felt my reply was offences .

 

[RichardS]

My first reply was to ask Snowleopard two question ,
1 asking him if I understood him correctly that he drops his anchor and goes off and have a cup of tea .
The second question is , what happens if it blow say 15 kts , does he still do the same . Because Why he is having his tea his yacht could now be dragging back at some speed if it hasn't set it self .

I also said I wasn't being rule to him and then when on to explain what our experiences our of people who do this .
It was snowleopard who then came Back and told me to get of my high horse , still not answering any of the question .
I ask of him to help me understand why he and others anchors in this way . I even put a smile in there to show it wasn't any malice involved .
If snowleopard is offended by what I wrote , I be happy to hear from him ,
And he can tell me why he felt my reply was offences .

Its just a misunderstanding. Vic was indeed only asking for clarification but Snowy thought he was being critical of his "cuppa" technique.

Happens in forums. Happens in real life.

Richard

 

[GrahamD]

Every anchor warp has its " bitter end"

Strange that this rule invariably applies to anchor threads as well!

 

[vyv_cox]

I used three Deltas on different boats for 20 years and never had a problem with any of them until we had a serious dragging problem in soft mud and a great deal of wind. I then bought a Rocna, 15 kg replacing 16 kg. overall I find it an improvement in most areas although it most certainly is not 'chalk and cheese'. The Rocna sets in a shorter distance in almost every bottom and once in has never dragged. But then neither did the Delta except in very soft mud. In the same situation again I would use the Fortress. There is no single anchor that will suit every bottom but I do think the NG ones offer a wider set of options.

We don't anchor as much as noelex does, can't beat 365/365 but we come close to half that.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You will avoid this sort of problem that is not very unusual with the Delta:

I am from the dark side but I'm interested in this thread because we have a 60kg Delta on our 60ft mobo and still managed to drag it twice last year in exactly those conditions ie soft sugary sand and that was despite setting it on both engines and having approx 5:1 of chain out. I'm not entirely convinced that any anchor holds well in these conditions because however good the anchor is at setting, the seabed substrate still has to be stiff enough to resist the load. Or are we saying that a modern design of anchor like the Rocna sets deeper than a Delta and has a greater chance of finding a stiffer substrate?

With regard to orientating the Delta correctly to fit into the bow roller, we simply leave it dangling just under the surface of the water and then go astern slowly. The Delta will then always orientate itself correctly
.

 

[bbg]

I am from the dark side but I'm interested in this thread because we have a 60kg Delta on our 60ft mobo and still managed to drag it twice last year in exactly those conditions ie soft sugary sand and that was despite setting it on both engines and having approx 5:1 of chain out. I'm not entirely convinced that any anchor holds well in these conditions because however good the anchor is at setting, the seabed substrate still has to be stiff enough to resist the load. Or are we saying that a modern design of anchor like the Rocna sets deeper than a Delta and has a greater chance of finding a stiffer substrate?

With regard to orientating the Delta correctly to fit into the bow roller, we simply leave it dangling just under the surface of the water and then go astern slowly. The Delta will then always orientate itself correctly
.

My understanding is that the new gen concave anchors effectively compress the seabed material because of their shape. They make the material more dense, as it were. Contrast that to a plow like the Delta that effectively disperse the seabed and make it less dense.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My understanding is that the new gen concave anchors effectively compress the seabed material because of their shape. They make the material more dense, as it were. Contrast that to a plow like the Delta that effectively disperse the seabed and make it less dense.

Any additional compressing-downwards force on the seabed under an anchor, beyond its weight, can only come from a pushing-upwards force on what's above it. Doesn't matter what generation it is: if it's compressing what's below it's dispersing what's above and vice versa. Thank you, Dr Newton.

 

[RAI]

I understand one of the NG anchor's capabilities is to dig deeper while the CQR and Delta are plough anchors and tend to just bury themselves before ploughing at greater loads.

 

[bbg]

Any additional compressing-downwards force on the seabed under an anchor, beyond its weight, can only come from a pushing-upwards force on what's above it. Doesn't matter what generation it is: if it's compressing what's below it's dispersing what's above and vice versa. Thank you, Dr Newton.

You misunderstand me. It compresses the material above the fluke, whereas plough type anchors push the material aside. Like ploughs in a field, which are designed to make their way through the soil.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You misunderstand me. It compresses the material above the fluke, whereas plough type anchors push the material aside. Like ploughs in a field, which are designed to make their way through the soil.

Hmm. Sounds a bit suspect to me. Compresses the stuff above it against what? Mud ain't strong. I'm sure they work well, but I hae ma doots that that's the mechanism.