Complete Lithium Installation Engineers Near Plymouth

[Sandy]

I think there exists a sort of lithium evangelism. Those who have done the switch tend to have a Road to Damascus experience and want to spread the good word. Thus far, I’ve only changed over in my camper van, installing 100a/h of LiFePo to replace an old lead acid leisure (house) battery. It’s a game changer, for all the reasons Geem mentions above, and now I find myself occasionally getting involved in these debates. I should imagine in a few years time even good quality LiFePo batteries will work out cheaper per amp hour than lead acid and at that point there will be a shift towards the new technology.

@fredrussell I'd be interested the amount of Ah you replaced and how do you define/measure 'game changer'

I am assuming you charge from your alternator and are moving the van daily or do you have solar. Are you parking up for a week or 10 days similar to being at an anchorage. If you are parking up and not charging what is the difference between old lead and your new LiFePo?

What are the power hungry devices you have in the van?

 

[fredrussell]

@Sandy, My van has an Eberspacher D2 heater and a Waeco CDF18 compressor fridge. The game changing feature for me is that the power curve of a lithium battery is hardly curved at all. It gives out good power for the great majority of its charge life and then drops off rapidly right at the end of its charge. On my van, that means voltage is above 12.8v for at least two thirds of the battery’s life. Eberspachers heaters really don’t start well with below, say, 12.3v - or at least mine doesn’t, needing repeated attempts at starting. Its starting efficiency is greatly improved since the LiFePo went in. MUCH less failed starts. Actually the same could be said of the fridge. As the compressor kicks in there’s a spike in current draw that my 110 a/h lead acid would struggle with when getting below 12.4v. Admittedly this battery was tired but that’s the whole point really, a lithium battery will not be tired for WAY longer than lead acid. Incidentally, that lead acid battery was 4 years old, constantly charged by alternator and 80w solar panel. My feeling is it didn’t last because it didn’t sit at float voltage enough, which as we know is what lead acid batteries need for a healthy life. Lithium batteries do not need (or indeed like) sitting at float voltage. As long as you get some charge in, and don’t leave it completely discharged or fully charged for very long periods, it’ll be happy.

 

[Sandy]

@Sandy, My van has an Eberspacher D2 heater and a Waeco CDF18 compressor fridge. The game changing feature for me is that the power curve of a lithium battery is hardly curved at all. It gives out good power for the great majority of its charge life and then drops off rapidly right at the end of its charge. On my van, that means voltage is above 12.8v for at least two thirds of the battery’s life. Eberspachers heaters really don’t start well with below, say, 12.3v - or at least mine doesn’t, needing repeated attempts at starting. Its starting efficiency is greatly improved since the LiFePo went in. MUCH less failed starts. Actually the same could be said of the fridge. As the compressor kicks in there’s a spike in current draw that my 110 a/h lead acid would struggle with when getting below 12.4v. Admittedly this battery was tired but that’s the whole point really, a lithium battery will not be tired for WAY longer than lead acid. Incidentally, that lead acid battery was 4 years old, constantly charged by alternator and 80w solar panel. My feeling is it didn’t last because it didn’t sit at float voltage enough, which as we know is what lead acid batteries need for a healthy life. Lithium batteries do not need (or indeed like) sitting at float voltage. As long as you get some charge in, and don’t leave it completely discharged or fully charged for very long periods, it’ll be happy.

Thanks Fred that is useful.

I have a Chinese heater that draws about 3 amps when running, while there is a fridge onboard I never use it.

I struggle to use 10 amps when the boat is operational and have 200 Watts of solar that keeps everything topped up in the summer.

Sadly, I can't recall the poster but this was posted on the forum last year and I've found useful.

State Of Charge (%) versus Voltage for various battery conditions​
SOC (%)​	100​	90​	80​	70​	60​	50​	40​	30​	20​	10​	0​
V, Rested​	12.8​	12.7​	12.6​	12.5​	12.4​	12.3​	12.2​	12.1​	12.0​	11.9​	11.8​
V, at 0 amp​	12.5​	12.4​	12.3​	12.2​	12.1​	12.0​	11.9​	11.8​	11.7​	11.6​	11.5​
V, at 5 amp​	12.4​	12.3​	12.2​	12.1​	12.0​	11.9​	11.8​	11.7​	11.6​	​	​
V, at 10 amp​	12.2​	12.1​	12.0​	11.9​	11.8​	11.7​	11.6​	11.5​	​	​	​

 

[geem]

The chart needs to relate to battery Ah capacity. You would have different voltages if you have a very small battery compared to a very large battery. Without that information, it is not so useful

 

[Tranona]

My primary reason behind starting this thread was a desire to create an electrical system which would power an AC Rainman watermaker on a 34ft boat in the Caribbean. For safety and space reasons, I was trying to eliminate the need to carry a Honda genset or, alternatively, a petrol powered watermaker. But I’m statring to think that the whole idea is impracticable. The insurance aspect, the risk of a faulty or poorly designed installation and the lack of space on a 34 footer for locating a large inverter all seem to mitigate against a lithium install.

As often happens the original question gets lost so it is good to get back to basics and ask what you want to achieve and how you go about it. The energy storage medium is only a small part of the question. The first question which you are now posing is whether a watermaker is feasible on a small(ish) boat like yours when there are all sorts of other competing demands on space and power and limited means of generating power. If you follow the threads here and the various youtubes on lithium based systems they are mostly much larger boats than yours (geems is 46', sea changes is 40' for example) and have space for both a wider range of electric kit and to mount the solar to power it. Such boats for many years managed fine with expensive deep cycle LA, but lithium gives them the opportunity to perhaps do more electrically but chiefly to exploit the longer life of lithium in their pattern of usage. The key properties of fast recharge, superior discharge makes far better use of solar and the smaller physical size enables a bigger buffer in the same space.

By today's standards 34' is a small boat for Caribbean cruising and there is a limit to how much electric powered kit you can fit and still be able to remain independent of shorepower - which is limited or non existent out there. so you are partly correct in your reservation - but it is not about whether to fit lithium, but deciding how much gear you can actually fit and run in that size boat using the solar you can realistically install. Even at the more basic level of kit lithium is worth considering because of the key properties mentioned above. The next question is then how to go about it. Not easy because it is new and there are many ways of doing it with no clear "best". It also depends on what you have already which might determine whether you can build on your existing system, or rip it out and start again.

However there is a pattern emerging of set ups that are not dissimilar from the established systems fitted to many modern boats. When I installed new electrics in my project boat 2 years ago lithium was definitely a no no because of lack of clarity on management and charging plus batteries were almost twice the price they are today. While my demands are modest and even now I could never make full use of what lithium has to offer, halving the space requirement would have solved the problem of cramming batteries into the space available which required a very expensive engine start battery. If I were doing it again, now and knowing what I know now, I would probably go lithium. However I have a robust system that will outlast me and have sufficient capacity for any feasible kit I wish to add.

The difficulty you will encounter finding somebody to design and fit a system is that it is still niche and there is not enough embedded knowledge or demand to support a mass market network of installers. The few that do it are still finding their own way through a changing technical and commercial environment. Good luck with finding somebody locally.

 

[Dominicpriestley]

Lots of options out there these days other than Victron. Clayton power as an example of an all in one unit...

LPS II 3000 - 2 kWh | 240V & 12V Lithium Power Supply - Clayton Power

 

[Neeves]

One of the hang ups appears to be insurance, for a Lithium installation.

I also wonder about insuring a 34' yacht crossing the Atlantic (Lead or Lithium) - (with no disrespect) small and short handed? and then spending time in the Caribbean and then making the return passage?

Correct me - 'UK' insurance will be high, even with Lead - will Lithium make that much difference. There are enough owners here to pass comment on their insurers views of their Lithium installations - no need for hearsay

In my post I made no suggestion that a professional installation was not part of the option. I suggested a simple search to allow the OP to familiarise himself with some or many of the issues (insurance has been mentioned histrorically). He might have then decided he would make his own installation, have it approved by a professional electrician (as one might do with a new gas self-installation) - or - he might decide with his newly formed knowledge have abetter idea on how to specify to his chosen electrician(s) for their suggestions (and quotes) - or - he might decide to sell his yacht and take up golf


I don't think choice of Lithium is the black and white of the extremes of the posts - there are many choices in life, we all make compromises - an individual who engenders debate (as is happening now with this thread) and makes a search of threads - has the opportunity to make educated decisions and reduce the numbers of compromises (and mistakes).


But to the OP - Rainman are making some good kit, I wish they had been at the stage they are now when we bought our Spectra unit 25 years ago - you are lucky, more options less compromises. I was impressed with their original unit and continue to be impressed with their developments (I'm lucky they operate 10km away and they give me demonstrations). But like a desalinator unit - you would build your own Lithium system (Geem and Kelpie did it) - Rainman build from standard components - its not rocket science. Make your mistakes on this forum - and learn - and when you reach a conclusion you will have minimised the compromises.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

In my post I made no suggestion that a professional installation was not part of the option. I suggested a simple search to allow the OP to familiarise himself with some or many of the issues (insurance has been mentioned histrorically). He might have then decided he would make his own installation, have it approved by a professional electrician (as one might do with a new gas self-installation) - or - he might decide with his newly formed knowledge have abetter idea on how to specify to his chosen electrician(s) for their suggestions (and quotes) - or - he might decide to sell his yacht and take up golf

Jonathan

There is no procedure for "approving" lithium installations because there are no regulations governing such installation, unlike gas.

I cannot imagine any marine electrician examining a self installed lithium installation and pronouncing it safe, fit for purpose etc. Why would one take on the responsibility and potential liability for something an owner has done to save paying said electrician for doing the work ? I certainly would not entertain such a proposition.

 

[Neeves]

My primary reason behind starting this thread was a desire to create an electrical system which would power an AC Rainman watermaker on a 34ft boat in the Caribbean. For safety and space reasons, I was trying to eliminate the need to carry a Honda genset or, alternatively, a petrol powered watermaker. But I’m statring to think that the whole idea is impracticable. The insurance aspect, the risk of a faulty or poorly designed installation and the lack of space on a 34 footer for locating a large inverter all seem to mitigate against a lithium install.

Graham,

You are mixing up two concepts.

Your need for a large inverter has nothing to do with Lithium but your demand for an AC desal unit. You don't need an inverter if the the desal unit is 12v. Whether you have a large invertor or not the amps you can store in a Lithium battery of a size 'X' will be larger than a Lead battery of the same dimensions but will be lighter and have maybe 2X usable amps - which reduces the 'lack of space' issue on a 34' yacht.

Your problem, as you outline, for a desal unit is how to power it and Lithium kit a no brainer - except you need to charge the Lithium (as you do for Lead). The 34' yacht then has its limitations on the size of solar display - which again has nothing to do with Lithium - so how could you maximise ..... the answer is in this forum

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

There is no procedure for "approving" lithium installations because there are no regulations governing such installation, unlike gas.

I cannot imagine any marine electrician examining a self installed lithium installation and pronouncing it safe, fit for purpose etc. Why would one take on the responsibility and potential liability for something an owner has done to save paying said electrician for doing the work ? I certainly would not entertain such a proposition.

Either Geem, and (he who was) Kelpie and others with self installed Lithium installations of which there are a number on this forum have found

1.. Electricians with the right paperwork to allow them to be accepted by Insurers as reputable certifiers

or 2 Have insurers who do not make demands denying cover for uncertificated Lithium

or 3 Have no insurance, though they will probably need 3rd party (or they would in Australia)

There may be other options

Here in Oz we have a different take - I know a few qualified Electricians, we are 'mates'. I would discuss with them what I was going to do, maybe buy bits from them that were cheaper than I could source, have them vet my every move - and for a slab or 2 I could have a certificate. Pity altruism has died in the UK. I would effectively be the labourer. I'm well aware that routing cables through ducting takes time and money - monkeys could do it - I would be saving the responsibility of employing 'another' monkey - and then I could help them with ground tackle, mast work (its amazing the people, including electricians, in the marine industry who don't like going up masts).

Jonathan

 

[B27]

Lead acid is still cost effective for basic needs on a small boat, because you can just directly charge from alternators and crude solar controllers. Also a LFP battery needs to be quite a size to start a diesel engine.
Once you get into complex systems, lots of Ah, lots of cycles for a liveaboard, the LFP looks to come into its own.

Some mid-size boats with 'in between' needs can probably argue it either way.
If I need a new house battery this year, it will be £100 for a new Lead Acid, job done.
My other boat might need a new lithium cell for its TackTick compass.

 

[Tranona]

Either Geem, and (he who was) Kelpie and others with self installed Lithium installations of which there are a number on this forum have found

1.. Electricians with the right paperwork to allow them to be accepted by Insurers as reputable certifiers

or 2 Have insurers who do not make demands denying cover for uncertificated Lithium

or 3 Have no insurance, though they will probably need 3rd party (or they would in Australia)

There may be other options

Jonathan

The key point is that unlike gas there is no approved standard (at least in the UK) for lithium installations. so insurer's conditions are usually just a blanket requirement that it needs to be "professionally" installed

 

[geem]

Graham,

You are mixing up two concepts.

Your need for a large inverter has nothing to do with Lithium but your demand for an AC desal unit. You don't need an inverter if the the desal unit is 12v. Whether you have a large invertor or not the amps you can store in a Lithium battery of a size 'X' will be larger than a Lead battery of the same dimensions but will be lighter and have maybe 2X usable amps - which reduces the 'lack of space' issue on a 34' yacht.

Your problem, as you outline, for a desal unit is how to power it and Lithium kit a no brainer - except you need to charge the Lithium (as you do for Lead). The 34' yacht then has its limitations on the size of solar display - which again has nothing to do with Lithium - so how could you maximise ..... the answer is in this forum

Jonathan

We have friends with a 38ft Rival. They power their high output watermaker differently. Its an engine driven CAT 247 pump. I know a few cruisers with small boats who went this way as space was tight. Its a good solution if you can find space for the pump. Once you are committed to running the engine to make water, you could also charge lithium via a DC/DC charger

 

[Sandy]

Either Geem, and (he who was) Kelpie and others with self installed Lithium installations of which there are a number on this forum have found

1.. Electricians with the right paperwork to allow them to be accepted by Insurers as reputable certifiers

or 2 Have insurers who do not make demands denying cover for uncertificated Lithium

or 3 Have no insurance, though they will probably need 3rd party (or they would in Australia)

There may be other options

Jonathan

Jonathan

I think your observation about insurance being the key are quite correct and the OP needs to get on the phone and talk things over with their insurance company followed by several emails confirming things in writing so there are no misunderstandings.

The passage that @KeelsonGraham is one that I'm considering, but am looking at a DC water maker, take a look at www.sailfishmarine.co.uk

I have tankage for c250lts of water and could easily add 50-100lts + rain collection. @geem is quite right I am a basic sailor, but that should last a 45 day crossing with ease, but really depends if he will be single or short handed and their use of fresh and salt water to do stuff like cook and wash, and if they take their dram with one drop or two of water .

I see a few have posted above about a getting a competent electrician to sign off a boats lithium system against a specification where clearly the technology is still in its infancy, but this will be a problem for the next decade that insurance companies will need to address.

 

[Ceirwan]

I swear if someone asked for advice on a good brand of kettle on this forum they'd have to deal with several pages of posters asking why they thought they needed a kettle in the first place, suggesting that a thermos flask was probably a better option, and that your choice of cruising life is incorrect and you'd be much happier with filtered rainwater.

 

[Sandy]

I swear if someone asked for advice on a good brand of kettle on this forum they'd have to deal with several pages of posters asking why they thought they needed a kettle in the first place, suggesting that a thermos flask was probably a better option, and that your choice of cruising life is incorrect and you'd be much happier with filtered rainwater.

I can point you at forums who discuss the question, why we need to heat water. As for the coffee makers, well that is a whole new universe.

 

[B27]

I can point you at forums who discuss the question, why we need to heat water. As for the coffee makers, well that is a whole new universe.

Those roasted coffee beans coated in dark chocolate are much better than drinking the stuff!


Am I doing this right?

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Thank all for an interesting debate. Decision taken. I'm staying with my 4 x 6v Trojans and am going to buy the petrol driven Rainman. Simpler and cheaper and I’ll take the risk of gasoline on board.

 

[geem]

Thank all for an interesting debate. Decision taken. I'm staying with my 4 x 6v Trojans and am going to buy the petrol driven Rainman. Simpler and cheaper and I’ll take the risk of gasoline on board.

Those Rainmans are a big lump of kit. Are you sure you really want to go that way? A friend had one on a 50 footer and used to complain about the size of the boxes. You also won't make many friends running a petrol generator in an anchorage

 

[Neeves]

So.... on the installation.

I recall a number of people who have posted their circuit diagrams, and have them amended here. Excuse me if I'm wrong and I'm then sure to be corrected, but the time taken, for which an appointed electrician will charge at full rates (but use his apprentice) is routing the wires and screw the appliances into their location. Someone will tell me why screwing an inverter or MPPT controler needs to pay full whack rates...... The wires need to be of the correct size and the eye connectors need to be correctly crimped - and to get some sparky to do all this, or his apprentice, and certificate he will charge you though the roof!

This is meant to be Practical Boat Owner - not much encouragement from those who see their income draining away.

Frankly I'm not impressed - but not surprised.

Geem - on the basic Rainman with the little Honda engine (its not a gen set - it just 'powers' the pump) - its not that big with one long rube (I think you can opt for 2 short membranes) and the pump, to which the Honda engine is attached and it makes less noise than an OB - I bet people in the carib have big OB and don't row. I've only used the original model with one membrane (but know you can have 2). I've only seen the other models. I'd go electric (for the reasons you mention - noise). The size does not worry me (it would fit under a berth or transom locker).

I find that my wife and the granddaughters demand a shower a day (as a minimum) as part of my marriage vows or grandaughter's birthright - and I'm not going to disappoint, I enjoy their company.

And for Graham the OP - I'd buy the electric rainman. I'd canvas those who have Lithium battery banks and define how they addressed, or not, the issue of insurance. If I felt I could over come the issue, of insurance, I'd then develop the diagram, as in my first para above, and have the assembled members advise me on my mistakes and ideas. I'd invest in a decent swager. I'd make a list of the hardware needed, the inverter, shunt, battery with blue tooth, B2B etc, MPPT and post the complete list. You would then get recommendations from Victron Everything - to, hopefully, cheaper versions of same. I think there is one alternative to Victron already posted on this thread.

I think your biggest issue is not the wiring nor the components - but how big a solar display you can support - and you have this problem with Lithium but more so with Lead. Again if you post - the answers have been discussed here on PBO. Bimini, Lifeline located panels etc etc. I'd look and covet a WattnSea. If you don't have the solar display you will not need a decent desalinator (as you will not have the power)

You could also build your own Lithium battery bank - which would allow you to most efficiently use your available limited space - and save you money, some have done this here on PBO. But you can buy 'off the shelf' blue tooth enabled Lithium batteries - anywhere, they are common place.

You will need to do some of this if you buy an inverter and extend your Lead battery bank - (and by rights you will need a sparky to certificate your work. . )

You mention the dangers of petrol, you will still need an OB? and you will be cooking on gas....

Insurance companies will eventually realise that LiFePO installations on boats (and in cars) are safe - the issue is with the cheap lithium battery, AA, banks and transformers for charging phones, drones and scooters etc. They need to change their focus. In the absence of Lithium your insurer is going to demand, effectively, you use gas - implying its safer than Lithium. I wonder how many have died through gas installation + carrying petrol vs faulty Lithium installations...?

I note you are already sufficient discouraged and plan to continue to use mid 20th Century technology - if you realise your dreams and get to the carib ..... I think you will regret it when you find your massive lead bank is not the panacea you hoped for (and you need to run your engine (annoying your neighbours) to keep the bank topped up (been there, done that . )

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan