DIY LiFePo4 installation - Don't do what I did (maybe) . . .

[PaulRainbow]

Just wondering: Do all new boat designs have to be approved against Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR)? Would that include conforming to these standards?

All new boats have to comply with the standards for the RCR to be sold in the UK and the RCD to be sold in the EU. The standards are the same for both. They don't apply to used boats, but i think it makes sense to follow them where practical.

Are there any boat builders using LifePO4 lithium as standard in new builds?

I'd expect there are, but don't know for sure. I understand Spirit Yachts have used them in hybrid builds.

 

[Tradewinds]

Distant Shores did a full LFP install on their new aluminium boat. See here.

 

[st599]

All new boats have to comply with the standards for the RCR to be sold in the UK and the RCD to be sold in the EU. The standards are the same for both. They don't apply to used boats, but i think it makes sense to follow them where practical.

They do apply to used boats if you import them in to either the UK or EU.

 

[PaulRainbow]

They do apply to used boats if you import them in to either the UK or EU.

If the boat is being imported into the UK or EU and was not RCD/RCR compliant when it was built, it would need to be checked for compliance, thereafter any work carried out is not subject to the ISO. But that's not really relevant for the purposes of this thread, no one is talking about importing boats, the discussion is about making changes to existing boats that might affect insurance.

 

[st599]

If the boat is being imported into the UK or EU and was not RCD/RCR compliant when it was built, it would need to be checked for compliance, thereafter any work carried out is not subject to the ISO. But that's not really relevant for the purposes of this thread, no one is talking about importing boats, the discussion is about making changes to existing boats that might affect insurance.

Just pointing It out so if someone reads the thread, they'll not make a mistake about an older boat always being compliant, An old boat so modified would need to pass the RCR/RCD in force at the date of import.

 

[dunedin]

If the boat is being imported into the UK or EU and was not RCD/RCR compliant when it was built, it would need to be checked for compliance, thereafter any work carried out is not subject to the ISO. But that's not really relevant for the purposes of this thread, no one is talking about importing boats, the discussion is about making changes to existing boats that might affect insurance.

But the insurers - and I think British Marine - seem to be saying that a major change requires updating your RCR / RCD certification - and further that changing battery type is in their opinion just such a material change - see #8 in the Haven Knox Johnston note - Lithium-ion Battery Guidance - Haven Knox Johnston
Quite who is going to check this is another matter, but certain types of changes to existing boats do require update to certification - though whether changing LA to LFP is such a change could be open to question.

 

[PaulRainbow]

But the insurers - and I think British Marine - seem to be saying that a major change requires updating your RCR / RCD certification - and further that changing battery type is in their opinion just such a material change - see #8 in the Haven Knox Johnston note - Lithium-ion Battery Guidance - Haven Knox Johnston
Quite who is going to check this is another matter, but certain types of changes to existing boats do require update to certification - though whether changing LA to LFP is such a change could be open to question.

I really don't have the time or inclination to address some of the crap in that article. Suffice it to say, British Marine is nothing more than a trade body.

A couple of quick points though.

#1 - "Should be installed by competent persons and to suitable industry standards". So anyone can do the job, if they are competent, no need for a "professional", as long as he follows industry standards. Yet #1 is headed "Use a professional" i guess that's one of their members.

#2 - "only use specific marine lithium ion batteries" WTF are they ?

 

[Tradewinds]

According to the above link one should turn off the solar charging when the boat is unattended - eh???. They really are lumping all the lithium chemistries under one roof. Despite all the evidence to the contrary regarding LiFePo4.

 

[Sandro]

I was just curious about the charging rate.
If it managed to get from 65% to full on fifteen minutes, that's a 1.4C charge rate, which is very fast.
For the 96Ah Bluetti that would be about 135A charging current, requiring 25mm² cables.
I think it's more likely that the battery was actually much closer to fully charged than it thought.
Anyway, back to the thread

(edited out typo)

+1

 

[AndyDavies]

It is supplied with three charging leads.
A 220V with a UK three pin plug.
One for Solar input-needs to be over 24v.
One for 12-14v DC input from the engine alternator, via a cigar lighter socket.

The unit has two 220v sockets for 13A three pin plugs, a 12v DC outlet and several USB ports.

No doubt the unit could be plugged into a boats shore power inlet, but I believe users on the FB page dont to this, believing it is not best practice.

We shall plug the individual units we wish to use direct into the Bluetti unit.

I charge my house bank from a Bluetti AC180 via the shore power inlet. I have 340AH and the AC180 will charge it to full (float) overnight from 12.5v.
I can then charge the Bluetti to full from motoring or an 800W generator () in 2 hours.
The default charging power options for the AC180 are 300, 1000 and 1250 W.
I asked Bluetti if these could be changed and they sent me bespoke firmware via the app to reduce the 1000 W charge to 700W so I can maximise generator output.
It's never occurred to me to inform my insurer I have it on board, any more than informing them about the lithium batteries in my phone and HH VHF.

 

[AndyDavies]

Deleted - duff info.

 

[PabloPicasso]

I asked on here about using a modern 'Power Station' made by Bluetti.

Reading this, I am glad I purchased when they were on sale, their entry level 180 model.

Tested it and so far it does exactly what it says on the tin.

45 minutes to full charge from the mains, boiling the 2kw kitchen kettle only drops the capacity a few %. I used it to power a 2kw SDS Hammer drill for making big holes in very hard concrete-my faithful cordless hammer drill would not do- it-again only a 5% drop in capacity after drilling two one inch holes five inches deep. First Mate has run the boat air fryer for twenty minutes, again only a small drop in capacity.

Well pleased, it is portable, very versatile and I believe it will do exactly what I expected of it.

I shall let my insurance company know I use it on the boat. Any issues with that, the forum will be the first to know.

Where did you buy the 180. How much did it cost

 

[rotrax]

Where did you buy the 180. How much did it cost

From Bluetti UK. On special offer, £549.

Very pleased so far, but not used it on the boat yet.

 

[rotrax]

Just an update, I have recently seen an inland waterways liveaboard Dutch Barge with - and I quote - "Huge Lithium Battery capacity. Marine certified for safety".

So, someone is offering safety certificates.

 

[Dockhead]

Whether we think it is right or wrong, it is clear that many insurance companies could decline a claim if the vessel has changed its main battery systems from Lead Acid to “Lithium” (often not differentiating between LiFEPO4 and other types) and they have not been informed. So the OP did the right thing.
HKJ also seem to be repeating a British Marine suggestion that this change may require redoing the EU/ RCD certification (at least for this aspect) - Lithium-ion Battery Guidance - Haven Knox Johnston
The HKJ sheet seems to imply you can’t leave your boat charging on shore power unless on board, which would be very limiting.
I suspect they are muddling up charging of gadgets, electric jet skis etc with LiFEPO4 installations, but the insurers make the rules for their policies,

I decided to stick with AGM when changing this year as saved changing all the charging systems - and will probably see my time out anyway.

That sheet displays ignorance about the differences between the type of lithium ion batteries used in consumer gadgets and LiFePo4 batteries, making a muddle.

 

[Dockhead]

Certification of a DIY installation was raised some time ago, like 6 months - and I cannot recall the thread title.

There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and members have described in detail their own specific installation. I recall one member had a power point lecture that, again I think I recall correctly, he made available. Building your own lithium bank is not difficult and if you were to do so - questions on the finer details would be answered - Part of the motivation in building you own system, including the batteries themselves - is to save money. My statement that building your own system is not difficult - the wiring diagram and full detail is provided from a number of sources, including Victron.

Paul Rainbow said, I think I recall correctly, said he would not certificate a DIY Lithium installation. If I have it wrong I am sure he will correct me .

If Paul is the norm then anyone without qualification and making a Lithium installation is probably voiding their insurance - though some insurers might, seems unlikely, be less strict, see baggywrinkle - above. The idea of self insurance would not work as you would not be able to access a fuel dock nor have a lifts for AF.

This seems the death knell of DIY lithium threads.

This thread

Any reason not to use lifepo4 batteries rather than agm on a very small boat at these prices?

has a simple answer

"You are likely to void your insurance - check with your insurance company before you invest or you may waste your money and be uninsurable."

Jonathan

First of all, it won't "void your insurance". Typically they will exclude coverage for battery fires, if they object.

My plan is to prepare very detailed design documents including calculations. And try to get an EE to write an opinion that the design is sound. This is not just for insurance, but simply good practice. You don't want to make a mistake here.

I will attempt to find an electrician who will inspect the completed system and give a written opinion that the installation has been carried out according to the design and with good practice.

Perhaps I'll even hire such to do the final assembly, particularly of the cabling.

Whether all this is worth it or not depends on how you value your time. I've already spent hundreds of hours designing my system. I justify it with the enjoyment I am getting out of it -- it's fun, and also great to have a really deep understanding of how the system works. Can't justify it economically, if your time is worth anything.

 

[dunedin]

That sheet displays ignorance about the differences between the type of lithium ion batteries used in consumer gadgets and LiFePo4 batteries, making a muddle.

Agree entirely that the HKJ sheet doesn’t differentiate by battery chemistry etc and therefore is not a great document.
BUT the insurance companies set the rules for their policies, and need to accept their definitions or go elsewhere. Saying “they are wrong” in terms of their rules may not help getting any claim paid.

 

[Tradewinds]

[Quote

Typically they will exclude coverage for battery fires,

The director who responded at Pants wrote the following - which was quite explicit

underwriters will have to exclude from cover with immediate effect all loss, damage, liability, claim or expense resulting from fire originating on board the Sailing Boat.

(my underline)

I understand you have been in correspondence with Pants & seem to have a lesser, all encompassing, response. I have read many of your posts on the Cruisers Forum and you seem to be extremely methodical in your approach but judging by your questions you posted you are far from 'professional' more a very diligent amateur (as I thought I was). Note: No insult intended.

Although the response to me from Pants was a big setback, I too found the whole exercise interesting and I learnt a lot. If I had intended to set off again on a big adventure I might have been more keen to a) fight my corner or b) pay for the appropriate professional expertise - but my long-distance cruising days are over so, for a quiet life, I decided to stick with LA. I'll keep my newly built LiFePo4 battery bank at home just in case the lights go out . . .

 

[st599]

MGN 550 (M+F) Amendment 1: Electrical installations - guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries

MCA have recently issued guidance on how to safely install Lithium batteries - I would assume that the insurers may accept compliance with this.

 

[st599]

I really don't have the time or inclination to address some of the crap in that article. Suffice it to say, British Marine is nothing more than a trade body.

A couple of quick points though.

#2 - "only use specific marine lithium ion batteries" WTF are they ?

The MCA guidance states:
It is recommended that all cells are tested taking into consideration the appropriate United Nations Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods, Model Regulations (see section 8) (UN38.3, UN3840 and UN3841) and the batteries should be certified to the applicable United Nations Dangerous Goods regulations.
and
Where a battery module manufacturer has incorporated battery cells from a different manufacturer, certification for the cells should be appropriate (IEC 62133-2) in addition to certification for the battery module (IEC 62619).

I have UN DG certs for batteries I use at work - allows me to take 20 big house brick size Lithium Ion batteries in hand luggage. They are not cheap to get certified.