DIY LiFePo4 installation - Don't do what I did (maybe) . . .

[Tradewinds]

. . . Notify my boat insurers that I'm changing to a LiFePo4 battery installation.

We note that you are planning to upgrade to Lithium batteries. Underwriters have requested you please confirm full details of the make, model and type of the any lithium batteries, confirmation that the batteries are marine grade and suitable for use in a marine environment, their storage, securing, ventilation, temperature control and charging methods and that all elements of the electrical system are lithium compatible. Please also confirm whether the batteries and associated equipment were professional specified and professionally installed by a qualified marine electrician.

I replied with a lengthy email detailing my installation and the (top) quality components I was using. A reply has just come back from a senior director of the company which is basically - No, it has to be professionally specified and installed.

retrofitting lithium batteries is a material change in the risk

and, if I was to go ahead with my LiFePo install

underwriters will have to exclude from cover with immediate effect all loss, damage, liability, claim or expense resulting from fire originating on board the Sailing Boat

As soon as the installation has been professionally inspected and signed off by a qualified marine electrician, the exclusion would be removed again.

In the light of all this I have decided to stick with my original FLA set-up - I would imagine the cost of a professional install would be too cost prohibitive for me ( a poor pensioner).

For the record I understand the insurer's point of view - in mitigation I did check my insurance documents and visit the insurer's website prior to proceeding with the build and found nothing at this level of outright rejection.

I have just checked their website again and it is obvious that their view on retrofitted (ie DIY) installations by boat owners has changed to our disadvantage.

Note: I may be offering for sale at advantageous prices various (quality) parts from my aborted LiFePo4 install in the near future - watch this space.

Ah well, it was a fun learning experience.

BTW this is not a gripe against my insurers - after all it is their ball - it's a heads up for others on the forum.

 

[lustyd]

Did you ask them if a DIY lead installation was acceptable? It’s certainly more dangerous from a fire perspective. I think we all assume that because lead is old and well understood that any and all installations are acceptable but in a claim situation I imagine many questions would be asked

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I'm unsure if you intended to use package LiFePO4 batteries, which include a BMS and cell balancing. Sold as, "like for like" replacements for lead acid batteries.
Or did you intend to build up your own battery pack from individual cell, and wire up the BMS and cell balancing circuits your self.
I think that the former represents very little risk, the latter would be an unknown risk.
Did you just tell the insurance company you wanted to move to LiFePO4, or where you explicit about the how you were intending to do it?
I moved to prepackaged LiFePO4 batteries in 2020, using Lifos drop in replacement and the insurance company wasn't interested. No increase in premium or demand for an inspection.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I asked the same question of my insurers as lithium batteries were a question on the application.

I contacted them and told them they were LiFePO4 batteries for the house domestic bank and they told me that was fine, they were asking the question to see if we had any of the more dangerous chemistries on board - basically propulsion batteries and electric drives.

My insurer is AXA Versicherung AG.

 

[dunedin]

Whether we think it is right or wrong, it is clear that many insurance companies could decline a claim if the vessel has changed its main battery systems from Lead Acid to “Lithium” (often not differentiating between LiFEPO4 and other types) and they have not been informed. So the OP did the right thing.
HKJ also seem to be repeating a British Marine suggestion that this change may require redoing the EU/ RCD certification (at least for this aspect) - Lithium-ion Battery Guidance - Haven Knox Johnston
The HKJ sheet seems to imply you can’t leave your boat charging on shore power unless on board, which would be very limiting.
I suspect they are muddling up charging of gadgets, electric jet skis etc with LiFEPO4 installations, but the insurers make the rules for their policies,

I decided to stick with AGM when changing this year as saved changing all the charging systems - and will probably see my time out anyway.

 

[lustyd]

could decline a claim if the vessel has changed its main battery systems from Lead Acid to “Lithium”

I took it to mean they wanted professionally installed power systems, given the questions. They could just as easily decline a claim for a bodged lead installation. Let’s not forget that lead batteries can and do cause fires and explosions,
If you have an electrical fire and make a claim, the insurance companies first question will be “was it professionally installed?” And if the answer is no, the chemistry of the battery will make very little difference in the ongoing conversation.

 

[Tradewinds]

I'm unsure if you intended to use package LiFePO4 batteries, which include a BMS and cell balancing. Sold as, "like for like" replacements for lead acid batteries.
Or did you intend to build up your own battery pack from individual cell, and wire up the BMS and cell balancing circuits your self.
I think that the former represents very little risk, the latter would be an unknown risk.
Did you just tell the insurance company you wanted to move to LiFePO4, or where you explicit about the how you were intending to do it?
I moved to prepackaged LiFePO4 batteries in 2020, using Lifos drop in replacement and the insurance company wasn't interested. No increase in premium or demand for an inspection.

The bank was made from A grade Eve prismatic cells supplied by Fogstar. The BMS also came from Fogstar - a JK-B2A8S20P with active balancer (& recommended for the Eve cells). The battery bank has been built and been running at home for the past 2 months and has been monitored daily without issue - I put this in my correspondence to the insurers. Essentially the bank was similar in style to what Geem built - but obviously I don't have his professional background from which to argue my point. From my email with the insurer it seems that it is the whole system they are uneasy about (cable runs etc etc). For my part, I decided that it wasn't worth going down the road of trying to contest their views. I was aware that other boat owners have installed LiFePo4 battery banks without any problems from their insurers. I don't know how many were so-called drop in batteries (which probably use Eve cells & a JK/JD BMS in a battery case).
If that makes a difference, then that's good news for those that have them. If you read what I wrote, I thought I made it clear that I had checked my policy documents and visited the insurer's website before commencing with the build. I could see nothing that excluded what I was about to do. The website now has a video which backs up their current position on LiFePo4 - not just 'Lithium'.
BTW they would not stop me from installing my bank - they were going to take cover away in the case of a fire. Not just a battery related fire but as it was written, any fire event. This is not an uninsured event I'm prepared to risk. Other people may feel differently.

This is just a heads up for those of us who go ahead thinking the insurers won't be too bothered.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Of course there are sort of variablrs between using drop in replacements and DIY design and installation.
In my case it was a "like for like" replacement, the LiFePO4 batteries were exactly the same size in the same box, and all the cabling and fusing was exactly the same professionally installed system.
The only difference was small changes in charging voltages set in the Victron inverter charger.
The BMS in the Lifos batteries cuts of at 200 amp per battery, giving a maximum current for 4 batteries in parallel of 800amps. The original AGM batteries could provide more than that.
The primary fuse in the system is 500amp.
Overall, I think that the LiFePO4 system is safer than the original AGMs.

 

[dunedin]

.......
Overall, I think that the LiFePO4 system is safer than the original AGMs.

You may be right, but the issue is with insurance companies and their views.

You don't need to answer, but did you inform your insurers and were they OK? (If not, might be worth checking their website in case you have lost cover.)
The report of the yacht loss and two fatalities off Canada suspected (but not proven) to be related to a large Lithium battery system (not LiFePO4) won't help with insurers.

 

[Sea Change]

Who is deemed to be a professional installer? Is there a particular certification required?

 

[Neeves]

Certification of a DIY installation was raised some time ago, like 6 months - and I cannot recall the thread title.

There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and members have described in detail their own specific installation. I recall one member had a power point lecture that, again I think I recall correctly, he made available. Building your own lithium bank is not difficult and if you were to do so - questions on the finer details would be answered - Part of the motivation in building you own system, including the batteries themselves - is to save money. My statement that building your own system is not difficult - the wiring diagram and full detail is provided from a number of sources, including Victron.

Paul Rainbow said, I think I recall correctly, said he would not certificate a DIY Lithium installation. If I have it wrong I am sure he will correct me .

If Paul is the norm then anyone without qualification and making a Lithium installation is probably voiding their insurance - though some insurers might, seems unlikely, be less strict, see baggywrinkle - above. The idea of self insurance would not work as you would not be able to access a fuel dock nor have a lifts for AF.

This seems the death knell of DIY lithium threads.

This thread

Any reason not to use lifepo4 batteries rather than agm on a very small boat at these prices?

has a simple answer

"You are likely to void your insurance - check with your insurance company before you invest or you may waste your money and be uninsurable."

Jonathan

 

[Tradewinds]

Certification of a DIY installation was raised some time ago, like 6 months - and I cannot recall the thread title.

There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and members have described in detail their own specific installation. I recall one member had a power point lecture that, again I think I recall correctly, he made available. Building your own lithium bank is not difficult and if you were to do so - questions on the finer details would be answered - Part of the motivation in building you own system, including the batteries themselves - is to save money. My statement that building your own system is not difficult - the wiring diagram and full detail is provided from a number of sources, including Victron.

Paul Rainbow said, I think I recall correctly, said he would not certificate a DIY Lithium installation. If I have it wrong I am sure he will correct me .

If Paul is the norm then anyone without qualification and making a Lithium installation is probably voiding their insurance - though some insurers might, seems unlikely, be less strict, see baggywrinkle - above. The idea of self insurance would not work as you would not be able to access a fuel dock nor have a lifts for AF.

This seems the death knell of DIY lithium threads.

This thread

Any reason not to use lifepo4 batteries rather than agm on a very small boat at these prices?

has a simple answer

"You are likely to void your insurance - check with your insurance company before you invest or you may waste your money and be uninsurable."

Jonathan

IMO a fair summary.

I think one needs to actually open the can of worms and ask your insurers directly - not just scan the docs/website and assume it will be acceptable as I did.

Also,I get the impression that they’re looking for ABYC/ISO accreditation. So not just any old electrical engineer.

PS. I also had read the thread you posted and numerous other threads on the subject.

No matter - it’s only money and I learnt a bit on the way. Luckily I hadn’t installed the new bank on the boat so it’s just a case of replacing some old, tired Trojans with something affordable.

Back to the stone age . . .

 

[Tradewinds]

Click on the video link from this insurer which explains their position. If I'd seen it earlier I probably wouldn't have bothered to go ahead with the project.
Boat Electrics – Lithium-ion batteries

PS - I'm only the messenger

 

[Neeves]

Click on the video link from this insurer which explains their position. If I'd seen it earlier I probably wouldn't have bothered to go ahead with the project.
Boat Electrics – Lithium-ion batteries

PS - I'm only the messenger

We are all messengers, its a forum.

Thank you for the message - . Its interesting that its taken a long time to be confirmed (even if it applies to only some insurers)

We do have a choice - we can employ an acceptable 'sub-contractor' and act as his apprentice - or some variation on the theme.

Jonathan

 

[starfire]

We are all messengers, its a forum.

Thank you for the message - . Its interesting that its taken a long time to be confirmed (even if it applies to only some insurers)

We do have a choice - we can employ an acceptable 'sub-contractor' and act as his apprentice - or some variation on the theme.

Jonathan

I doubt if a 'sub contactor' will go for it.
If there is a claim, your insurers will go after him & his insurers, his price will reflect this fact.

I doubt if Paul Rainbow of this parish would accept that deal.

By all means get an accredited installer to spec & do it, ask him questions & help, you will learn something.

 

[Tradewinds]

I note Nigel & DrJan run an online marine electrics course based on ABYC and ISO. I wonder if insurers would accept this if successfully completed and handed a bit of paper. Perhaps someone on the forum knows the answer.

PS. Is Dr Jan related to Jurgen Klopp?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Who is deemed to be a professional installer? Is there a particular certification required?

Also,I get the impression that they’re looking for ABYC/ISO accreditation. So not just any old electrical engineer.

No such thing as ABYC or ISO accreditation, both are simply standards, ABYC is American so not relleative here in the UK.

The ISO that relates to boat electrics in the EU/UK is a standard that must be complied with when building new boats to be sold in the EU/UK. The current ISO has no mention of Lithium batteries, but they are working on an update.

There is no requirement for those of us working on secondhand boats to comply with the ISO. However, in the case of some systems, it makes sense to do so. Although the ISO does not cover Lithium installations and the ABYC standards are for the US, it makes sense to me for UK installers to comply with the ABYC standard as much as possible.

 

[Tradewinds]

Paul, thanks for the clarification.

What qualification does a marine electrical engineer have - I presume there is a professional body that issues such a thing?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul Rainbow said, I think I recall correctly, said he would not certificate a DIY Lithium installation. If I have it wrong I am sure he will correct me .

If Paul is the norm then anyone without qualification and making a Lithium installation is probably voiding their insurance - though some insurers might, seems unlikely, be less strict, see baggywrinkle - above. The idea of self insurance would not work as you would not be able to access a fuel dock nor have a lifts for AF.

I doubt if a 'sub contactor' will go for it.
If there is a claim, your insurers will go after him & his insurers, his price will reflect this fact.

I doubt if Paul Rainbow of this parish would accept that deal.

By all means get an accredited installer to spec & do it, ask him questions & help, you will learn something.

I would not "certificate" a DIY installation. That would mean putting my name to a DIY installation and potentially being liable in the case of an insurance claim.

When i do an installation i check every crimp as i go, make sure all cables are correctly supported etc etc. How could one do that with a DIY installation, without pulling things apart to check them ? For instance, are all of the connections in the fuse panels tight, are the fuses correct, are the crimps properly done ?

I have, in the past, taken jobs on where the owner wants to do some of the work. I have told him what parts to fit and how to fit them, invariably i arrive to find he has sourced some cheap rubbish parts and/or installed them incorrectly. I then have to re-do the job, a waste of money.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul, thanks for the clarification.

What qualification does a marine electrical engineer have - I presume there is a professional body that issues such a thing?

Unlike domestic and commercial electricians, there are no compulsory qualifications for marine electricians. There are a couple of short courses run by trade bodies and some "training" by manufacturers that's more product training than anything.