Colregs, big mobo/small sailboat, on Hamble and similar

[flaming]

Colregs question please. Context is narrow channels (eg Hamble), good viz, vessels in sight of each other, no overtaking going on, close quarters risk of collision between a yacht under sail not motor (say a dinghy, or a 10-15m sailing vessel) and a powerboat of 30m. I'm asking here on s'butt mainly to get input from cruising sailors and dinghy sailors/racers.

• Colregs 18 contains what we often call the "power gives way to sail" rule which is: "Except where Rule... 9 ... otherwise require[s ] (a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: ... (iv) a sailing vessel."
• Colregs 9b, which if applicable takes priority over rule 18, says "(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway"
• Colregs 9d says "(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway."
• Colregs 8(f)(i) defines the shall-not-impede concept like this: "A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage ... of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel."

You then have the what-to-do rules:

• Colregs 16. Action by give way vessel. Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear
• Colregs 17. Action by stand on vessel. (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

FWIW, nothing in Hamble bye laws is relevant here - Colregs are not meaningfully altered by those bye laws.

I think it's clear from the above that Rule 9 trumps Rule 18 in these circumstances. Then what? Is it correct that the sailing vessel in my scenario is the give way vessel by virtue of 9b? Do sailors in general know/think/agree that? If navigating along the Hamble and there is a group of sailing dinghies, do they generally think are give way? I don't ever remember being taught that as a dinghy sailing/racing kid/teenager. Or is there some other interpretation or rule that I'm missing, that makes the motor boat the give way vessel?

Colregs are (imho, often stated in here on ybw) very imperfectly drafted, which is partly why I ask people's views on this

I think your interpretation of the COLREGs is correct. But..

For a brief, and utterly inglorious, time I was part of the Foxer fleet in Hamble. The standing rule there was that when racing the fairway was out of bounds. And we assumed crossing the fairway to be akin to crossing a busy A-Road. It's honestly not a lot of fun to be in a tiny dinghy trying to cross back to the slipway when some of the larger MOBOs are coming in.

More normally I'm based in the Hamble, and so encounter dinghies in the river frequently. I'm not 30m, but they're really not an issue, and it's very rare that any actual racing takes place within the river, except in the "bay" opposite HRSC, well outside of the channel.

Generally I think the issues between MOBOs and dinghies stem from misunderstandings from both sides about the nature of their propulsion. In the Hamble I most often see this as MOBOs failing to understand that both themselves, and the moored boats, have a huge effect on the wind to a dinghy. If you're a 50 foot + flybridge MOBO you are taller than their mast and you cast a wind shadow that will remove all the wind from a dinghy. This can be tricky for non sailors to appreciate.

Experienced dinghy sailors will know this and anticipate, principally by going nowhere near you if they can help it. Less experienced sailors might not. Less experienced sailors also have far less "bandwidth" spare to look around, as so much more of their attention is focused on simply sailing the boat.

In addition, the wind on the Hamble, and especially in the channel, is nothing if not shifty, full of holes and generally unreliable. Especially when it's on the lighter side. So the exact conditions where large MOBOs have been out for a lovely blast around the solent, and beginner dinghy sailors have been out practicing. In the vicinity of the harbourmaster's office you often see dinghies nearly becalmed one minute, and moving well the next. So a dinghy may well set out across the fairway moving well, only to come to a near stop halfway across. Again, experienced dinghy sailors know where to look to anticipate this. Beginners don't.

Quoting the COLREGs when you're referring to a dinghy and a large MOBO may well make sense to an esteemed legal mind such as I understand you to be, but it doesn't change the physics when you've just removed the wind from the dinghy in front of you.

I fully understand that makes it stressful when bringing a large boat into somewhere like a Hamble, but expecting a neat legal framework to work seamlessly in a situation where you have wildly different experience levels, source of motive power and effect of one boat on another is perhaps a trifle optimistic.

 

[finestgreen]

Quoting the COLREGs when you're referring to a dinghy and a large MOBO may well make sense to an esteemed legal mind such as I understand you to be, but it doesn't change the physics when you've just removed the wind from the dinghy in front of you.

If you put a dinghy in a situation where you know it's very likely to be a danger to navigation I don't think you can reasonably just say "oops I can't move, not my fault".

 

[Babylon]

On the Hamble and in its entrance channel (or anywhere else like it) expect the unexpected, and be prepared to use the common-sense part of your brain as much as the blind obedience to the rules part.

There is frequently a multitude of things going on all at once: motorboats of all sizes and descriptions, yachts under power and sometimes sail, dinghies transiting and sometimes racing (the latter not usually in the main channel), vessels overtaking or being overtaken, people parking or un-parking off a pontoon mooring or trying to pick up a trot, school and charter boats with unfamiliar helms, racing yachts or keelboats hurrying back from a round-the-cans session, ferries crossing, folk who measure risk-of-collision in millimeters, others in country miles, skippers who never touch a drop and others who would spontaneously ignite if they walked past a smoker.

Yes start with the rules and stick to them, but be aware that you usually have some leeway yourself to not complicate a situation for everyone. You can slow down a tad to give others time to sort themselves out. You can hold your position just far enough out to stop an idiot overtaking you if you judge that prudent in terms of what you can see ahead (defensive driving).

On the other hand... I'm sometimes forced to aim my small yacht directly at the bows of an over-large bath-toy approaching majestically down the centre of the channel... sometimes to add spice I even duck down and hide from view... it always works!!

 

[flaming]

If you put a dinghy in a situation where you know it's very likely to be a danger to navigation I don't think you can reasonably just say "oops I can't move, not my fault".

I didn't say that the dinghies who get into that situation are legally correct. Not being legally correct when they are without wind in the fairway does not however make them any less "there".

I'm just explaining, from my point of view, how situation occur, and why the big MOBO is unwise to assume that the dinghy can extricate itself from the situation it finds itself in.

Whenever I'm whelming my boat in or out of the Hamble, which I do maybe 60 times a season I guess, I work on the assumption that everyone is basically trying to do their best to keep out of everyone elses way, but if I need to take avoiding action for someone I do... I've been sailing out of the Hamble for 16 years now, and haven't had any memorable incidents, so I figure I'm doing something right.

 

[Mark-1]

Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road:

I'd never heard of this. How does it compare to Cockroft?

 

[Mark-1]

Dinghies are pretty maneuverable and typically keep a good lookout. Given they're not regularly smashing into Yachts/Mobos I think we can be pretty sure they *are* taking evasive action where required, it's just not always obvious to the people they're avoiding.

The best thing a substantial vessel can do in a narrow channel is maintain course and speed and allow the dinghies to avoid them as required.

"A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway." -- It's all a bit subjective. Some people will be impeded by their fear of a single dinghy 200m away on a vague collision course, some people will not be phased bay an RS600 planing within 10cm. Unless there's a physical collision the impediment is largely in the mind of the larger vessel.

 

[zoidberg]

I understand, from those wot know, that the Racing Rules of Sailing have changed again recently. And I suspect the French Variations on the IRPCS - which have been adopted by the cruise-party boats plying Plymouth Harbour and the Tamar - have had their ambiguities enhanced again.

It's especially interesting when some armchair admiral here discovers the translation of 'Catch 22' into Harbour Bylaws and seeks to muddy the waters further by insisting that one uses the preferred pronouns when yelling at some boggle-eyed incompetent 'Darwin Award' applicant in an Oppie....

'Rumph!

 

[finestgreen]

I'd never heard of this. How does it compare to Cockroft?

I've only read a few sample pages of Cockcroft but I think Farwell seems to go into more detail on ambiguities and the specifics of how different courts have interpreted rules, etc

 

[DreadShips]

It's very well quoting various bits of the COLREGs to say what ought to happen, but remember that nobody escapes Rule 2.

 

[finestgreen]

It's very well quoting various bits of the COLREGs to say what ought to happen, but remember that nobody escapes Rule 2.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that the powered vessel should just mow down the sail boats!

 

[Pinnacle]

The Harbour Regs state that “Vessels of over 20 metres in length must call Hamble Harbour Radio on VHF Ch 68 for approval to enter the river.” I can find no mention of a requirement to seek similar approval when leaving the river, but I have heard such calls be made.

The benefit of this reg is that the HM can inform the incoming boat about any other current >20m movements. Additionally, yachts with a vhf listening on 68 will also be aware of the incoming 30m vessel and be able to proceed accordingly. On the other hand it is most unlikely that a small dinghy will have or be listening to a vhf.

The harbour also has a speed limit of 6 knots (through the water - not SOG.)

I first motored a yacht down the river in the 1970’s and while it is busier now than it was then, my experience has been that (with remarkably few exceptions) all river users have been considerate.

I hope that the skipper of the imaginary 30m mobo enjoys his transit of the river.

 

[capnsensible]

All the rules in the colregs are simple until you get some smart arris lawyer wriggling to get his punter off the hook for megabucks.

 

[PeterV]

Flaming gives good advice. As a dinghy racer on the Hamble and also a sailing yacht owner I’d just make a couple of points.
The MOBO in a MoBo vs dinghy situation is never unable to manoeuvre since he can easily slow down or stop.
If the tide is low a sailing dinghy is just as constrained by the banks as the MoBo is.
Dinghy racing does not generally take place north of Warsash SC jetty, other than the HRSC racing outside the channel. Evening races start and finish at the WSC jetty, only the Bursledon regatta dinghy races start up river, on one Saturday of the year.
Despite several comments on here all racers I know are well aware of the differences between the racing rules of sailing and the collision rules and that the racing rules only apply between boats participating in the race.

 

[Puffin10032]

I would hope that the master of a 30 metre vessel would be sufficiently conversant with COLREGS as to not need to resort to the Internet for advice on the subject..

I think some here really need to take a small sailing dinghy out in the vicinity of large vessels and discover for themselves just how vulnerable you feel.

 

[oldbloke]

I didn't say that the dinghies who get into that situation are legally correct. Not being legally correct when they are without wind in the fairway does not however make them any less "there".

I'm just explaining, from my point of view, how situation occur, and why the big MOBO is unwise to assume that the dinghy can extricate itself from the situation it finds itself in.

Whenever I'm whelming my boat in or out of the Hamble, which I do maybe 60 times a season I guess, I work on the assumption that everyone is basically trying to do their best to keep out of everyone elses way, but if I need to take avoiding action for someone I do... I've been sailing out of the Hamble for 16 years now, and haven't had any memorable incidents, so I figure I'm doing something right.

I like the idea of whelming your boat, I usually find myself underwhelming it.

 

[Mark-1]

I think some here really need to take a small sailing dinghy out in the vicinity of large vessels and discover for themselves just how vulnerable you feel.

Which just goes to show how much this whole issue is about perception. In a dinghy I don't feel remotely vulnerable. I'm far more maneuverable than anything I encounter and regardless of ColRegs I (ideally) want them to hold their course and speed because avoiding them is trivial for me, whereas it's a massive drama for them and usually impacts other vessels.

 

[obmij]

Is the Hamble considered to be a narrow channel? I suppose it depends on the vessel. Would a 30m MY with almost instantaneous response from engines be unable to navigate safely? I would not like to answer the question in front of Captain Hardarse from the MAIB after taking out a family in a 12m sailing yacht or a few overeager kids in dinghys.

I don't think rule 9 applies with this vessel in this river (although I am not massively familiar with the Hamble) Instead I would be focusing my mind on Rule 6 and proceeding at a safe speed and paying close attention to the manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions and the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels - and as ever the most important rule is 2

 

[RobbieW]

Is the Hamble considered to be a narrow channel? I suppose it depends on the vessel. Would a 30m MY with almost instantaneous response from engines be unable to navigate safely? I would not like to answer the question in front of Captain Hardarse from the MAIB after taking out a family in a 12m sailing yacht or a few overeager kids in dinghys.

I don't think rule 9 applies with this vessel in this river (although I am not massively familiar with the Hamble) Instead I would be focusing my mind on Rule 6 and proceeding at a safe speed and paying close attention to the manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions and the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels - and as ever the most important rule is 2

I guess that for much of its length the main channel in the Hamble is about 20m wide and bounded by moored boats on pile moorings.

 

[Seastoke]

On the Hamble and in its entrance channel (or anywhere else like it) expect the unexpected, and be prepared to use the common-sense part of your brain as much as the blind obedience to the rules part.

There is frequently a multitude of things going on all at once: motorboats of all sizes and descriptions, yachts under power and sometimes sail, dinghies transiting and sometimes racing (the latter not usually in the main channel), vessels overtaking or being overtaken, people parking or un-parking off a pontoon mooring or trying to pick up a trot, school and charter boats with unfamiliar helms, racing yachts or keelboats hurrying back from a round-the-cans session, ferries crossing, folk who measure risk-of-collision in millimeters, others in country miles, skippers who never touch a drop and others who would spontaneously ignite if they walked past a smoker.

Yes start with the rules and stick to them, but be aware that you usually have some leeway yourself to not complicate a situation for everyone. You can slow down a tad to give others time to sort themselves out. You can hold your position just far enough out to stop an idiot overtaking you if you judge that prudent in terms of what you can see ahead (defensive driving).

On the other hand... I'm sometimes forced to aim my small yacht directly at the bows of an over-large bath-toy approaching majestically down the centre of the channel... sometimes to add spice I even duck down and hide from view... it always works!!
[/QUOT. Pathetic .

 

[Seastoke]

I would hope that the master of a 30 metre vessel would be sufficiently conversant with COLREGS as to not need to resort to the Internet for advice on the subject..

I think some here really need to take a small sailing dinghy out in the vicinity of large vessels and discover for themselves just how vulnerable you feel.

Surely if you deem yourself vulnerable in your risk assessment before you step in your vessel , maybe you should sail in a safer location.