Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?

[Bouba]

Probably global war and massive redistribution of 8Bn people. Arguably we ought to start being nicer to migrants in the short term and setting a good example so that when we need to move people are nice in return.
Given that the UK is incapable of supplying sufficient fresh water for the current population in the current climate, I'd say it's unlikely our leaders are the answer here.

Good luck with that. You won't be able to buy a spare o-ring, let alone membranes for water makers. Your passport will be useless and you'll be unable to return to land for food. Add to which, where would you even sail once global weather patterns change and the tropics are uninhabitable? Pretty much left with the arctic or hurricane/cyclone troubles.

There's no "prepper" way out of this, we have to focus on sorting the issues, or bury our heads in the sand and hope to be gone by the time it really kicks off. Unfortunately the consensus is that this will hit over the coming few decades so it's current and next generation that will suffer.

There is definitely a prepper way out....retreat to your secret underground lair fully stocked for a few years survival....emerge strong and healthy to a land of the weak and comprised...you’ll be king of the world

 

[boomerangben]

This is fascinating! There are so many aspects to this, I don’t know where to start. First of all, it’s a shame that the cost of the report is so high, the details would be interesting.

If my numbers came in and was buying a new build boat, I would seriously look at trading the mass of engine, gearbox, fuel tank and gas for an equivalent mass of batteries and edrive with regenerative capability. I have no idea of feasibility, but to me that has to be the goal - regenerate as much as possible and remove or at least reduce as much as possible reliance on shore based recharging. If the report suggests only 45 hours average use per year, surely that must be reasonably feasible. If we are only concerned with propelling our boat for a few hours each year surely this must be the way forward?

As Tranona says, averages are pretty blunt statistical tools, so it would be useful to know more on how the report gathered the data. I would have thought it would be sensible to discard boats from the stats which are used less than say 5 hours per year. The most environmentally sound practice then is to not buy those boats in the first place. Think of the carbon used in the making of the boat.

Which brings me onto the next point: how significant is fuel useage vs the use of fossil fuels to make the boat, sails, ropes, anti fouling, transport to and from the boat compared with fuel usage on board. How much is used in replacing items….. if you are only using a boat a few hours a year then the carbon cost of construction becomes more significant. Should we be allowed to use GRP, nylon, polyester, etc?

It strikes me that there are lots of sectors competing for HVO fuels. There are only so many deep fat friers and those are increasingly demonised by the healthy eating sector. Just how scalable is HVO? The vegetable oil has to be grown, what environmental impacts are there there? It’s all very well saying we should replace diesel, but with palm oil grown unsustainably? What about soil health, erosion and so on. Are farmed hydrocarbons really sustainable? Is this accounted for in the report?

Going to extreme, petrol and diesel, accounts for about a 70% fraction of each barrel of crude produced, we make use of the remain 30% for LPG, plastics, pharmaceuticals and other petrol chemicals (resins for hulls, nylons and polyesters for ropes and sails ). If we still want boats, we need that 30% but the remaining 70% becomes a by product, which could be used to power ICEs…..!

I realise that I have taken a simplistic view on all this, but quite frankly the options are so intricately connected with a huge number of factors, the complexity is mind boggling. Which makes it so interesting!

 

[bluerm166]

We keep hearing here about the renewal of turbine blades as a limiting issue but having never spotted a crane/rig carrying this out on our local windfarms it would be useful to get a link to the factual data on this.
Can someone provide such a link?
The lifetime costs would surely already reflect such a significant factor and make wind farms less advantageous than the studies and the market shows.
It has apparently worried some that wind turbines can run overnight when there is little demand ,but despite the necessity to double /treble ? the grid capacity , taking out 60 kw + for each of millions of overnight ev charges would seem a good match.

 

[Tranona]

This is fascinating! There are so many aspects to this, I don’t know where to start. First of all, it’s a shame that the cost of the report is so high, the details would be interesting.

If my numbers came in and was buying a new build boat, I would seriously look at trading the mass of engine, gearbox, fuel tank and gas for an equivalent mass of batteries and edrive with regenerative capability. I have no idea of feasibility, but to me that has to be the goal - regenerate as much as possible and remove or at least reduce as much as possible reliance on shore based recharging. If the report suggests only 45 hours average use per year, surely that must be reasonably feasible. If we are only concerned with propelling our boat for a few hours each year surely this must be the way forward?

I realise that I have taken a simplistic view on all this, but quite frankly the options are so intricately connected with a huge number of factors, the complexity is mind boggling. Which makes it so interesting!

If you are interested in reducing carbon emissions then that is the very worst thing you can do - that is clear from the report, and has been clear ever since this debate started. The only sensible thing you can do if you want to keep boating is use an existing boat. The major part of the carbon release is already a sunk cost and your only future emissions will be the meagre amount of fuel you use and the carbon costs of any replacement parts including batteries you use in the future. If you buy an electric powered yacht now with existing technology you are committing to 50% higher carbon costs over the lifetime of the boat, roughly half of which is in the manufacture of the boat.

For that you get a reduction in range of up to 90% , a small reduction in fuel cost but quiet running under power. Don't forget the new battery bank ever 10-5 years

 

[Stemar]

There is definitely a prepper way out....retreat to your secret underground lair fully stocked for a few years survival....emerge strong and healthy to a land of the weak and comprised...you’ll be king of the world

Once you've disposed of the other well-armed preppers with the same idea and ambition...

Burning a finite resource like dinosaur juice was always a daft idea. Far better to use a renewable/sustainable source for fuel and use the oil for other vital stuff that isn't so "easily" produced from other sources. If there's a civilisation to look back from the future, I expect the 19th-21st centuries will be known as the profligate age, or something even less complimentary.

 

[Bouba]

Once you've disposed of the other well-armed preppers with the same idea and ambition...

Burning a finite resource like dinosaur juice was always a daft idea. Far better to use a renewable/sustainable source for fuel and use the oil for other vital stuff that isn't so "easily" produced from other sources. If there's a civilisation to look back from the future, I expect the 19th-21st centuries will be known as the profligate age, or something even less complimentary.

Having watched Star Trek The Voyage Home several times ....I know exactly what the future world thinks about us

 

[Stemar]

Having watched Star Trek The Voyage Home several times ....I know exactly what the future world thinks about us

I haven't watched it. What do they think?

 

[Bouba]

I haven't watched it. What do they think?

They think that those people in the 1980’s were quaint....one was shagable....but they thought man’s destruction of the environment, especially the slaughter of the whales was lamentable

 

[fredrussell]

They think that those people in the 1980’s were quaint....one was shagable....but they thought man’s destruction of the environment, especially the slaughter of the whales was lamentable

Bloody aliens, I’m sick of their condescending attitude towards us.

 

[Bouba]

Bloody aliens, I’m sick of their condescending attitude towards us.

No, James T Kirk is from Iowa....and Mr Spock is half human

 

[thinwater]

This will always be the most green approach. Keep good old boats running. Sail instead of motor whenever practical.

It will never be popular, because throwing things away pumps more money around, creating false prosperity. The Brave New World was a warning.

 

[lustyd]

Don't forget the new battery bank ever 10-5 years

Where are you getting that from? At 10 years that would be 10 full cycles per week (even if you go with the conservative 5000 cycles) which would be insane for anything other than a work boat. My lithium bank is currently up to 6 cycles, having averaged one a month since install.

 

[thinwater]

Where are you getting that from? At 10 years that would be 10 full cycles per week (even if you go with the conservative 5000 cycles) which would be insane for anything other than a work boat. My lithium bank is currently up to 6 cycles, having averaged one a month since install.

I Googled multiple sources that I respect re. car batteries and saw answers ranging from 10-15 to 15-20 years. Warranties are typically 8 years, and would be longer if much more than 10 years was certain. Cycles matter, but batteries also deteriorate from corrosion.

There are many sources that agree with the 10-15 year projection. Some of this will also relate to the installation and charging practices. Many variables.

But I wonder how many people will actually own a boat more than 15 years. Most of us swap for some reason. Buying a used boat, few people assign much value to installed batteries, because we don't know much about them; lithium changes that ... some.

 

[Ribtecer]

Isn't CO2 the logo for a Contessa?

Serious question; how will constant charging of a powerful battery effect electrolytic corrosion elsewhere on the boat? Has this been done and what were the results?

Also surely the dangers of falling over board and suffering electrocution in the water will increase significantly if all the boats are moored up and wired to a 3 phase supply? I remember an article warning of the dangers of falling in in a marina with so many boats being hooked up to shore power, I seem to remember A/C unit got alot of blame because of their big draw on power and the boats potential leakage.

Interested in possible thoughts.

No answers to these two questions?

 

[Tranona]

Where are you getting that from? At 10 years that would be 10 full cycles per week (even if you go with the conservative 5000 cycles) which would be insane for anything other than a work boat. My lithium bank is currently up to 6 cycles, having averaged one a month since install.

Suggest you read the review of the report in YM as it explains that the capacity of current batteries decay over time irrespective of whether they are used or not. This is one of the key arguments against electric with the current technology. EV batteries typically have a useful life of 8-10 years but in that case they may well have provided power for 100k miles. A boat battery will spend most of its time doing nothing, hence the 2-3% loss in capacity each year will lead to replacement in the timescale mentioned. The assumed life of boats is 45 years which means that typically the boat will require 3 battery sets over its life.

Of course there is currently little real world experience of actual lives but I guess the assumptions made in the report are based on industry estimates and experience to date.

The key point is that with current technology electric and to a lesser extent hybrid is an inappropriate method of providing propulsion power for both sailing and motor boats used for recreational purposes. There are of course specific applications where they are acceptable for practical purpose, but if the objective is to reduce carbon emissions related to the activity anything that requires batteries to store the energy for future use does not achieve this - in fact the opposite leading to typically a 50% increase in carbon costs over the lifetime of building and operating the boat.

Not my words or ideas, but from the report, so don't shoot the messenger.

BTW there is nothing new about this as the same principle applies to EVs although not so extreme IF the EV uses only electricity from renewables and runs for high mileages (over 100k) in its lifetime when the lower carbon cost of powering the car may offset the greater carbon cost of making it over its lifetime if it manages it on one battery.

 

[KevinV]

The key point is that with current technology electric and to a lesser extent hybrid is an inappropriate method of providing propulsion power for both sailing and motor boats used for recreational purposes.

I agree with nearly everything you say, except about the sailing boat - there are many of us very far removed from the AWB they chose, for us the sums may look quite different. I for instance in a light 22'er need a couple of horsepower for five or ten minutes either end of a sail, with decent regen it'd be perfect for me. I don't motor to places - I don't sail to a schedule or a fixed destination so there isn't the need. The sailing is the point of the exercise for me, the motor is genuinely an auxiliary.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

No answers to these two questions?

If I get to electrtify my boat, it will be 100% off grid, thanks. And in any case, it has no immersed metal components. The drive leg, currently outboard, lifts clear. There’s no power at my mooring. Luckily we are light, easily driven and have a lot of deck area. There’s no power at a lot of moorings. That obviously makes full electric difficult. We have a long way to go to de fossilize the leisure marine sector.

 

[Bouba]

You can go electric hybrid or fully electric boating.....just like the very early days of electric cars. In my prediction of the future, electric large trucks with long range will be commonplace...like the Tesla Semi....but at an affordable price for the trade (as if big trucks are cheap).....anyhow those big electric truck drivetrains will get marinised eventually....and we will have useful mid size electric boats.
Of course the infrastructure of most marinas aren’t able to supply the needs of today’s boaters....like their WiFi for example....so that will always be the choke point

 

[Snowgoose-1]

j In my prediction of the future, electric large trucks with long range will be commonplace...like the Tesla Semi....but at an affordable price for the trade (as if big trucks are cheap).....anyhow those big electric truck drivetrains will get marinised eventually....and we will have useful mid size electric boats.
Of course the infrastructure of most marinas aren’t able to supply the needs of today’s boaters....like their WiFi for example....so that will always be the choke point

I'm all for it but where is the power to charge the trucks coming from ?

It will necessitate new power stations , probably nuclear .

 

[lustyd]

anyhow those big electric truck drivetrains will get marinised eventually

There's nothing there to marinise really, it's fundamentally an electric motor and battery with a controller. Tesla do some clever stuff with heat redistribution, and they engineer into a vehicle, but none of that would likely be copied or need to be copied for boats.

just like the very early days of electric cars

Hybrid cars are very much still a thing. After seeing Exeter services around new years I think I'd still choose hybrid for the foreseeable future. They must have installed 100 electric charge points but there were still panicked drivers fighting over charger spaces driving in circles and waiting. Some waited the whole 45 minutes we were stopped there and still didn't get a charger when we went on our way in a diesel that had been filled before the trip to Cornwall and didn't need filling.

I am pro electric, it has a lot of advantages. Some scenarios aren't there yet and in the scheme of things that's probably not tipping the scales either way. Realistically, if we could stop one container ship at source from bringing poundland single/zero use crap it would offset every yacht the UK has or will ever see.