Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?

[Tranona]

This is the banner headline on the cover of this month's YM. It is in reference to a major piece of work carried out by ICOMIA investigating decarbonising the recreational marine industry. The scope is wide covering just about all types of boats and both manufacture and lifetime usage and the full report is over 350 pages long.

The YM article picks out key points mainly related to sailing yachts and motor boats concentrating on overall carbon costs and in more detail operating costs. The full report is here propellingourfuture.com where you can download an executive summary and order a free synopsis.

Inevitably there is a huge amount of detail and as with all research into the future a wide range of assumptions made about how boats are used which will of course lead some (particularly those plugging alternative propulsion systems!) to try and dismiss it as unrealistic.

However the conclusions are clear. Compared with the "base case" of ICE as propulsion the only alternative that lowers the lifetime carbon "cost" is the use of sustainable (e fuels) instead of fossil fuels. The other 3 alternatives (hybrid, electric, hydrogen) considered all significantly increased the carbon cost with electric only being the worst at around 35% increase for auxiliary sailing boats and over 80% for motorboats. Most of this increase comes from the higher cost of manufacture, replacement and disposal of batteries over the lifetime of the boat (given as 45 years) after allowing the offset of carbon saving from using electricity from renewable resources.

Well worth a read and maybe some of the more strident advocates of electric propulsion here will recognise why alternatives, particularly electric will remain a fringe activity until there is a major change in battery technology.

 

[wonkywinch]

I don't understand the rush towards electric cars in the UK where the infrastructure isn't ready. Many of my friends who bought them we don't see any more (unless we drive to them in my 3 litre petrol guzzler) as they all suffer from range anxiety and we don't have a charger at home.

Even more puzzling is why anyone would go to the expense of fitting an electric engine to a yacht. The one on ours has done 350 hours in 8 years, the whole purpose is to get drive from the big flappy things. It cannot be cost effective, nor green to replace a perfectly good low consumption fossil fuel engine with an electric motor.

 

[Tranona]

The reason for EV sales is because many new car buyers, particularly companies have no alternative. Law forcing manufacturers to have 25% of their sales this year as EVs. Biggest con ever if the policy is to reduce carbon related emissions as the reduction at point of use barely offsets the increase in the manufacturing end, even if all the electricity is from renewables. Just shifts it to China where most of the batteries and cars are made.

The report does review carbon reduction in cars as a comparison with boats which only highlights your second point.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Any EV depend on electrical port for manufacture and running.

This must come from somewhere and if it all renewable then OK but if any fossil fuel is used it is not truly environment friendly

Where I live most electricity (when we have it) comes from coal fired power stations and inter town distances is large so EV must have recharging station about 200 300 Km apart my boat is 800 Km away so would need 2 recharges to get to my boat

 

[Tranona]

Any EV depend on electrical port for manufacture and running.

This must come from somewhere and if it all renewable then OK but if any fossil fuel is used it is not truly environment friendly

Where I live most electricity (when we have it) comes from coal fired power stations and inter town distances is large so EV must have recharging station about 200 300 Km apart my boat is 800 Km away so would need 2 recharges to get to my boat

The report is about propulsion for boats, not road transport. The parameters are quite different and any mention of cars is only to illustrate how different the two are. This is a boaty forum.

 

[fredrussell]

I’d be interested in a survey on what percentage of electric outboard owners have no real interest in the environmental aspects of their purchase. I bought my (2nd hand, cheap) Torqeedo because I was sick to death of the abject misery of trying to keep a small petrol outboard operational. The Torqeedo is so nice to use i sometimes inflate the flubber just for a whizz around - never did that with my petrol outboards!

And apols for thread drift.

 

[rogerthebodger]

The report is about propulsion for boats, not road transport. The parameters are quite different and any mention of cars is only to illustrate how different the two are. This is a boaty forum.

I am fully aware of the main thrust of the article was about boats and EV stands for electric Vehicles which to included boats

The same issues with the production of electrical applies to both boats and well as all other electrical vehicles

The efficiency of electric boats is very different to other vehicles and will use much more electrical power to travel the same distance as an electrical car.

This is why I have a sail boat which will be much environmentally friendly that any electrically powered boat.

I do have an engine in my boat as our port authorities have that requirement to enter or leave the harbour

Personally if I must have an engine of some kind I would prefer a hydrogen powered boat where he exhaust is only water

Again I am only posting y view am I not allowed to do that

 

[flaming]

This is the banner headline on the cover of this month's YM. It is in reference to a major piece of work carried out by ICOMIA investigating decarbonising the recreational marine industry. The scope is wide covering just about all types of boats and both manufacture and lifetime usage and the full report is over 350 pages long.

The YM article picks out key points mainly related to sailing yachts and motor boats concentrating on overall carbon costs and in more detail operating costs. The full report is here propellingourfuture.com where you can download an executive summary and order a free synopsis.

Inevitably there is a huge amount of detail and as with all research into the future a wide range of assumptions made about how boats are used which will of course lead some (particularly those plugging alternative propulsion systems!) to try and dismiss it as unrealistic.

However the conclusions are clear. Compared with the "base case" of ICE as propulsion the only alternative that lowers the lifetime carbon "cost" is the use of sustainable (e fuels) instead of fossil fuels. The other 3 alternatives (hybrid, electric, hydrogen) considered all significantly increased the carbon cost with electric only being the worst at around 35% increase for auxiliary sailing boats and over 80% for motorboats. Most of this increase comes from the higher cost of manufacture, replacement and disposal of batteries over the lifetime of the boat (given as 45 years) after allowing the offset of carbon saving from using electricity from renewable resources.

Well worth a read and maybe some of the more strident advocates of electric propulsion here will recognise why alternatives, particularly electric will remain a fringe activity until there is a major change in battery technology.

35 hours seems like a very low average run time per year doesn't it? And obviously low running hours skews the total carbon footprint towards the manufacture side rather than the usage side.

It is however an interesting look at the state of play now, with current technology and current manufacturing techniques and pricing. I have my suspicions that as manufacturing decarbonises and battery tech improves and reduces in cost that there is more likely to be a tipping point for new build coastal (sailing) cruisers preferring electricity in say a decade or 15 years.

Think as well of the new boat owner in say 15 years time. Someone who is in their mid 20s now. It's quite possible that such a person will never have had to deal with the workings of an ICE engine, but they will be by then quite used to the concept of plugging a car in and understanding battery best practices etc.
To that person, a diesel engine under their companionway steps is a whole world of unknown. The idea that they could need to bleed the fuel line offshore? Or change the oil? Or have to diagnose a lack of cooling water? And diesel bug...? Or any of the other issues that pop up on these forums...

Why would that person want a diesel engine, however clean the fuel, if there was an option to have a motor powered in a way that they are familiar with? Provided of course that the system does what they need it to do....

 

[thinwater]

... This is why I have a sail boat which will be much environmentally friendly that any electrically powered boat.

I do have an engine in my boat as our port authorities have that requirement to enter or leave the harbour ....

This. The amount of fuel I use on the boat compared to the rest of my life is trivial. The range is pretty good too, as long as the wind blows.

I understand that cruising sometimes involves long motoring to meet a schedule. I hate it, but it's the ugly truth. Unfortunately, batteries don't solve that problem (range), so it is really outside of the electric conversation. As for the fuel we used getting in and out of the harbor, it doesn't amount to much, certainly less than a gallon per day.

 

[MisterBaxter]

Luckily there's an exceptionally low-carbon propulsion system for boats already on the market - quite a mature technology too. It's called 'sails'... Anyone interested in reducing CO2 emissions just needs to focus on minimising engine hours.

 

[Stemar]

The amount of fuel I use on the boat compared to the rest of my life is trivial. The range is pretty good too, as long as the wind blows.

Absolutely. This will, I think, apply to most yachts. OTOH, Electric power the way Uma does it (or did, they seem to have lost their way a bit as a sailing channel) lots of solar power and huge batteries - does work, mostly sail, plus a very occasional top up from the mains. At least, it works for them. It would be less effective for me, because I'm getting old and lazy and listen to Madame too much, as she prefers to motor. It would also be less effective for people who have to be back at work on Monday and the wind on Sunday is being unhelpful.

 

[thinwater]

Luckily there's an exceptionally low-carbon propulsion system for boats already on the market - quite a mature technology too. It's called 'sails'... Anyone interested in reducing CO2 emissions just needs to focus on minimising engine hours.

That's pretty funny.

Any cruiser knows that when he wants of needs to stretch available fuel he sails. In fact, they should have done a lifecycle annalysis of sail vs. power, which would have to compare and contrast the capital and maintenance cost of sails vs. power. Sails, running and standing rigging, masts, and the maintenance aren't cheap or zero carbon. I spend a lot more on the rig than I do on the engine. But the incremental cost is reasonable.

 

[rogerthebodger]

This. The amount of fuel I use on the boat compared to the rest of my life is trivial. The range is pretty good too, as long as the wind blows.

I understand that cruising sometimes involves long motoring to meet a schedule. I hate it, but it's the ugly truth. Unfortunately, batteries don't solve that problem (range), so it is really outside of the electric conversation. As for the fuel we used getting in and out of the harbor, it doesn't amount to much, certainly less than a gallon per day.

You have hit the nail on the head

The amount of fuel I use on my boat is not worth discussing compared the amount I use to get to my boat so why is it een a discussing point.

If the wind does blow why worry.

If you wish to enter a harbour and there is no wing just anchor up until the wind does blow.
If you are i midocean hy worry you are not in danger.

The only one issue would be food and water but you just need good planning

I did fit a small generator to run a water maker and you can always catch fish for food

is is mainly a sailing forum this type of discussion is more for the motor boat guys

 

[Tranona]

35 hours seems like a very low average run time per year doesn't it? And obviously low running hours skews the total carbon footprint towards the manufacture side rather than the usage side.

It is however an interesting look at the state of play now, with current technology and current manufacturing techniques and pricing. I have my suspicions that as manufacturing decarbonises and battery tech improves and reduces in cost that there is more likely to be a tipping point for new build coastal (sailing) cruisers preferring electricity in say a decade or 15 years.

Think as well of the new boat owner in say 15 years time. Someone who is in their mid 20s now. It's quite possible that such a person will never have had to deal with the workings of an ICE engine, but they will be by then quite used to the concept of plugging a car in and understanding battery best practices etc.
To that person, a diesel engine under their companionway steps is a whole world of unknown. The idea that they could need to bleed the fuel line offshore? Or change the oil? Or have to diagnose a lack of cooling water? And diesel bug...? Or any of the other issues that pop up on these forums...

Why would that person want a diesel engine, however clean the fuel, if there was an option to have a motor powered in a way that they are familiar with? Provided of course that the system does what they need it to do....

Th average they worked to was actually 24 hours pa as that included boats which don't actually go anywhere! The problem with averages like that is they don't show the distribution and considering the size of the population (number of sailing boats) the extremes represent very large number of boats where electric may be viable even with the current technology. That is why you see boats like the Salona 46 at one end and the numerous day sailers and sports boats at the other coming on the market.

The 2 key limiting factors are the limited range (24 miles for sailing boats in the report) and the high cost of batteries over the 45 year life span. They estimated a typical life of 10-15 years for batteries, mostly limited by time related decay meaning at least 3 sets of batteries over the life of the boat. Unlike cars not enough running time using carbon free energy to offset the carbon cost of the batteries.

The important thing is that the report aimed at identifying the key factors affecting carbon related "costs" to help manufacturers identify where they might direct their efforts and investment in decarbonisation, recognising that unlike cars and domestic heating for example there is currently little compulsion by way of legislation to influence them.

 

[Tranona]

Again I am only posting y view am I not allowed to do that

Your previous post was solely about cars in South Africa so maybe the Lounge would have been a better place for it.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Your previous post was solely about cars in South Africa so maybe the Lounge would have been a better place for it.

Are you a moderator of this forum if so move it its UK and EU is not the whole world

Africa is much bigger the the UK and the EU for that matter

 

[Refueler]

My view is that the amount of fuel I use (diesel) in my boats and gasoline in others ... the carbon footprint be less than the accumulative E propulsion ?

We can leave out manufacture of the items as both ICE and E will incur carbon cost .. which is greater ? probably the ICE.

The environmental side of battery production ... then again vs petroleum production ... mmm yes we can put that aside as well.

Now we come to use of ... this is where I start to consider E power has its downfall ... yes it can power any of our boats .. but what about the generation of the power to charge the batterys ... in my mind ICE gives a better run time per power value ? E power is limited in run time and the source of power to charge the batterys is generally Gas or Petroleum ... or even worse coal powered station ...

Then the life of the batterys I cannot see being as long as an ICE .. so there is disposal - am environmental issue even now. A large part of the batterys are not recyclable ... but near all of an ICE is.

In my mind I can see a similar situation developing for E systems as we have for wind turbine blades ... shorter life than people expect .. disposal by burying .....

??

 

[Refueler]

You have hit the nail on the head

The amount of fuel I use on my boat is not worth discussing compared the amount I use to get to my boat so why is it een a discussing point.

If the wind does blow why worry.

If you wish to enter a harbour and there is no wing just anchor up until the wind does blow.
If you are i midocean hy worry you are not in danger.

The only one issue would be food and water but you just need good planning

I did fit a small generator to run a water maker and you can always catch fish for food

is is mainly a sailing forum this type of discussion is more for the motor boat guys

Ventspils - as with quite a few others .... you are not allowed to sail in / out ... entering / departing you are required to be under power. You may have sails assisting but only if they do not hinder any action or manoeuvre required of you.

I am one of the few I know of that has had that rule relaxed - but that was based on my knowing the HM and my engine was non-operable at the time ... I had only started entering hbr - when Pilot boat came out and then towed me in ...

Just posting to illustrate that not all hbrs allow you to sail in / out.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Ventspils - as with quite a few others .... you are not allowed to sail in / out ... entering / departing you are required to be under power. You may have sails assisting but only if they do not hinder any action or manoeuvre required of you.

I am one of the few I know of that has had that rule relaxed - but that was based on my knowing the HM and my engine was non-operable at the time ... I had only started entering hbr - when Pilot boat came out and then towed me in ...

Just posting to illustrate that not all hbrs allow you to sail in / out.

Yes I agree

Our Harbour require 2 means of population to enter or leave the harbour
That means 2 engines on a power boat an a sail boat has 2 being an engine and the sails

I had at one time entering harbour my engine cut out and there noss no wind so I had to be towed in ad back to my mooring by the port police who were kind enough to tow me without reporting me

It really depends on the ship traffic

We also must have a pilot exemption as the ship requirement is the the port is a compulsory pilot port

 

[flaming]

Th average they worked to was actually 24 hours pa as that included boats which don't actually go anywhere! The problem with averages like that is they don't show the distribution and considering the size of the population (number of sailing boats) the extremes represent very large number of boats where electric may be viable even with the current technology. That is why you see boats like the Salona 46 at one end and the numerous day sailers and sports boats at the other coming on the market.

The 2 key limiting factors are the limited range (24 miles for sailing boats in the report) and the high cost of batteries over the 45 year life span. They estimated a typical life of 10-15 years for batteries, mostly limited by time related decay meaning at least 3 sets of batteries over the life of the boat. Unlike cars not enough running time using carbon free energy to offset the carbon cost of the batteries.

The important thing is that the report aimed at identifying the key factors affecting carbon related "costs" to help manufacturers identify where they might direct their efforts and investment in decarbonisation, recognising that unlike cars and domestic heating for example there is currently little compulsion by way of legislation to influence them.

I didn't spot them thinking you'd need new batteries every 10 years. That's an interesting take... I'm not sure that expecting a modern EV type battery to give up the ghost just because it's old even if it's had only a comparative handful of cycles is entirely valid. I wonder if anyone has a 10 year old EV battery with minimal use to check it's health....?

As I've said over many different threads on the future of boat power plants, I think the key risks to ICE in boats are 2 fold. legislation based on "rich yotties still polluting when average joe bloggs has had to give up their petrol car" and continued availability of fuel at an acceptable price.

Based on both of those, it would seem wise to be putting some research into making alternatives viable if we want our children to also enjoy our hobby.