Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?

[Sea Change]

Are the numbers of Liveaboards actually significant in terms of yacht ownership?

I can't answer that without guessing. It's going to be very much dependent on location. Here in the Caribbean liveaboards are surely the vast majority, followed by charter. But back in the UK the vast majority of boats are used only at weekends or on holidays.

How many of these Liveabords rely on Lithium. I can think of 'prominent' liveaboards who are not lithium users

It's a pretty big proportion. I'd guess about half. But people only tend to bring up the subject of batteries if they're interested in it, and that gives a bias towards lithium.

In other words, I know for sure that certain boats have lithium, but the others are unknowns.

 

[Tranona]

I'm finding difficulty accepting that the out put of Benny, Jenny, Bav and the myriad of multihull builders (with Diesel engines and lead battery banks) is 'relatively small'. I'm finding it difficult to identify the 'lots' of simpler battery powered new builds - but do accept the technology is mature - I think you are saying nothing new.

Jonathan

The explosion in popularity of the mass production 9-15m cruising sailboat since the 1980s is in many ways due to the introduction of small lightweight diesels in the 20-60hp range mostly derived from industrial power units primarily used in the agricultural and construction sectors. Without those marinas would not have developed to house the thousands of boats that spend 90% of their lives parked up, boats would not have hot water, fridges and all the other power hungry gear. Perhaps most importantly they enabled busy people to take their weekends and holidays on their boats knowing that they stand a chance of reliably getting home on schedule. For some who have to snatch their time away in an environment of variable weather in hostile waters with tidal flows and inconvenient headlands to avoid it is quite liberating to have a reliable economical engine at the press of a button. Likewise the charter industry would never have got off the ground without AWBs that are more like hire cars which you can let novices loose on with knowing that they will not come to too much harm and bring the boat back on time ready for the next punter.

As the report emphasises electric is not the answer as a substitute for diesel for this market which I guess accounts for 80-90% of the boats in use and new builds every year. At the same time there are numerically sizeable segments where alternatives are possible and even desirable - and Caribbean liveaboards is one of them. As the earlier link shows a diesel is not necessary if you sail in a location with adequate favourable winds, lots of sunshine year round and no need to use marinas (because there aren't any). Very different from N Europe where comfortable sailing relies on fossil fuels and a shore based infrastructure to park and store the boat for 50% of the year (or 70% in the Baltic!).

It is instructive to look at the material from the makers of alternatives and the boats that use their products. The emphasis is always on what the products add to the user experience NOT anything about replacing existing motors, but about either enhancing their performance or enabling the boat to do things that are not possible with diesel alone. A good example would be the canal boats in the UK where the diesel power is inefficient for propulsion and not able on its own to provide enough energy for the domestic needs of the crew. A hybrid with its combination of propulsion and power generation from unused engine capacity is very attractive, particularly as battery weight and bulk for storing the energy is not an issue. There is an active market in new canal boats for liveaboard or charter use and many are choosing hybrids.

It is true that new build volume in the sailing boat market has shrunk compared with the first 20 years of this century and builders have been reluctant to offer alternatives for all the reasons discussed here. The dilemma is what to do with the huge park of existing boats for which there is no viable product at present for conversion. I suspect that nobody will try to change this from a decarbonisation point of view because as the report highlights it will be counter productive. That won't stop some from DIY conversions if it suits their pattern of usage, but it will never be mainstream - just fodder for youtubes.

 

[dunedin]

I'm finding difficulty accepting that the out put of Benny, Jenny, Bav and the myriad of multihull builders (with Diesel engines and lead battery banks) is 'relatively small'. I'm finding it difficult to identify the 'lots' of simpler battery powered new builds - but do accept the technology is mature - I think you are saying nothing new.

Jonathan

Volume of new builds vs existing numbers of boats is pretty small, yes. Because so many existing boats which last a very long time.

It is interesting that the Ban/Jea/Bav/Hans builders haven’t yet been even talking much in this area. Clearly the very live price differential for a serial hybrid that would be usable (perhaps £50k or so) is much more likely to be acceptable to somebody already paying a premium for an Arcona / X-Yacht / HR / Outremer. Or indeed for the Spirit, Saffier etc which all are doing a relatively high proportion electric …… of their tiny volumes.

The big surprise is that no flotilla charter company has ordered a fleet of electric propulsion yachts. A flotilla fleet would be the ideal “use case” - making short hops between a small predefined set of harbours on a regular basis (hence easy to establish infrastructure). There would likely be a good PR /marketing angle for a “green” fleet (and nobody would probably point out the obvious flaw that all the customers fly in on jets!). And the idiot proof operation and less parts to break might reduce maintenance for the fleet engineers. Expect will see at least one fleet order in the next couple of years.

 

[boomerangben]

So in short, the yachting market has almost no commercially viable interest in decarbonising propulsion.

It seems there is deep scepticism of bio fuels, so perhaps little interest there either. (this isn't decarbonising, just changing which carbon cycle you are tapping into)

It strikes me the most effective way of decarbonising sailing is looking at how users get from their home to their boat and back.

 

[Sea Change]

Propulsion is just one aspect of decarbonising yachting. The much lower hanging fruit is general electrical use.

I'm utterly amazed that with today's technology and prices, sunset in popular anchorages in the Caribbean ushers in a chorus of Honda suitcase generators firing up. Often on large cats with plenty room for solar. I really don't understand it. The payback time for a solar/lithium upgrade would be pretty swift.

But then not everybody acts rationally, otherwise nobody would smoke and there'd be no national lottery.

 

[boomerangben]

Propulsion is just one aspect of decarbonising yachting. The much lower hanging fruit is general electrical use.

I'm utterly amazed that with today's technology and prices, sunset in popular anchorages in the Caribbean ushers in a chorus of Honda suitcase generators firing up. Often on large cats with plenty room for solar. I really don't understand it. The payback time for a solar/lithium upgrade would be pretty swift.

But then not everybody acts rationally, otherwise nobody would smoke and there'd be no national lottery.

Agreed. I was thinking just from the point of view of the original post and the report he referenced which relates to propulsion

 

[Grith]

Forget the green bit (which is still very debatable over whole of life cycle costings) what I love about electric propulsion is the quiet!
We use a torqeedo 1103 to power a 3.5 ton trailerable yacht when needing to move in low wind and or on the nose cruising.
River cruising is particularly pleasant under sail but bends changing the wind direction are then easily dealt with by a quiet push under our torqeedo outboard.
Recently we quietly powered for over one and a half hours at about 3 knots directly into a 5-8 knot breeze in complete tranquility watching the extensive bird life which was undisturbed by noisy engines.
PS with about a thousand watts of solar panels on board our 28 foot yacht we also cook by induction, have hotwater via 240v immersion heater, separate compressor fridge and freezer and recharge our two torqeedo batteries whilst out extended cruising. We are now leaving our generator ( and its noise ) behind having recently existed for over 8 weeks cruising without requiring it.

 

[BabaYaga]

So in short, the yachting market has almost no commercially viable interest in decarbonising propulsion.

It seems there is deep scepticism of bio fuels, so perhaps little interest there either. (this isn't decarbonising, just changing which carbon cycle you are tapping into)

From the summary:
'Renewable diesel fuel, specifically hydrotreated vegetable oil (HVO) ICEs can provide the largest global warming potential (GWP) reductions for diesel craft provided the fuel is produced using waste feedstocks.'
To me this seems to be the most obvious way of reducing the global warming footprint from yachting, in combination with a change of usage patterns that no doubt will come with the much higher fuel prices that we can expect the for the next couple of decades.

 

[Neeves]

1000 watts of solar on a 28' yacht - you are an example to us all. Next birthday you need to be dropping hints for a WattnSea.

Jonathan

 

[Grith]

1000 watts of solar on a 28' yacht - you are an example to us all. Next birthday you need to be dropping hints for a WattnSea.

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan. I don’t think we are generally sailing fast enough for a propellor based water generator!
1000w on a 28 foot trailerable yacht contribute to us being more a slow moving but flexible cruising platform than a speedster capable of generating worthwhile amounts of power by speed through the water!
I have instead just purchased some further flexible fold up solar panels to deploy on the upturned inflatable dingy on the foredeck and fold out central Bimini when appropriate. As usual these seem to only produce about half their rated power on average which is much less than the fixed panels.

 

[Neeves]

Hi Jonathan. I don’t think we are generally sailing fast enough for a propellor based water generator!
1000w on a 28 foot trailerable yacht contribute to us being more a slow moving but flexible cruising platform than a speedster capable of generating worthwhile amounts of power by speed through the water!
I have instead just purchased some further flexible fold up solar panels to deploy on the upturned inflatable dingy on the foredeck and fold out central Bimini when appropriate. As usual these seem to only produce about half their rated power on average which is much less than the fixed panels. View attachment 170697View attachment 170698

I think the problem with an inability to achieve specification of solar panels is that shade seems to have a disproportionate impact on output. Even a little shade reduces performance big time. The idea of suspending panels outboard from the lifelines/stanchions might be the best answer. We have been trialing, moveable, folding solar panels on the roof of the house and when in full sun the output is remarkable - similar to rated output - in the afternoon we have a large tree shading parts of the roof and output drops dramatically - to 1 or 2 amps. In your case (but only when you are at anchor) or the case of many I wonder if having a temporary structure allowing the boom to carry panels laid horizontally might work. Frankly I have been amazed and appalled at the reduction in output caused by shade - its not something I had monitored previously.

The benefit of trialing on the roof is that the platform does not move - so the variables are minimised and limited to the movement of the sun. In real life we need to focus on finding the most shade free location on a yacht - which is the Bimini and outboard of the stanchions.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Volume of new builds vs existing numbers of boats is pretty small, yes. Because so many existing boats which last a very long time.

It is interesting that the Ban/Jea/Bav/Hans builders haven’t yet been even talking much in this area. Clearly the very live price differential for a serial hybrid that would be usable (perhaps £50k or so) is much more likely to be acceptable to somebody already paying a premium for an Arcona / X-Yacht / HR / Outremer. Or indeed for the Spirit, Saffier etc which all are doing a relatively high proportion electric …… of their tiny volumes.

The big surprise is that no flotilla charter company has ordered a fleet of electric propulsion yachts. A flotilla fleet would be the ideal “use case” - making short hops between a small predefined set of harbours on a regular basis (hence easy to establish infrastructure). There would likely be a good PR /marketing angle for a “green” fleet (and nobody would probably point out the obvious flaw that all the customers fly in on jets!). And the idiot proof operation and less parts to break might reduce maintenance for the fleet engineers. Expect will see at least one fleet order in the next couple of years.

I can only agree, particularly with your final paragraph. The Whitsundays are another perfect example, lots of sunshine, short distances between very different islands, good anchorages and glorious beaches. The charter companies would need to increase their focus on solar displays and have big house/motor banks. They could extend the life of the existing fleet of diesel engined yachts by offering them at a premium rate for those who want to sail from dawn to dusk (for when the wind drops) and sell the electric powered yachts based on their green credentials and people's consciences.

The big issue is the re-sale value of the retired electric yachts. Only good for day sails (which might be the reality for many yachts - but not what the owners dream of).

Or do I dream too much?

Jonathan

 

[Grith]

Agreed Johnathon. Our Bimini and targa bar mounted panels are generally completely shade free whilst our cabin roof mounted panel can tilt port starboard to minimise or eliminate shading. The upturned inflatable dingy mounted panel has a reasonably shade free area even part time when sailing and the central fold out Bimini location can be assisted by pulling the boom off to one side.
I have looked at stanchion mounting but our yacht is a bit small to carry them there.
Our EcoFlow portable lithium power pack battery systems allow exact both inward charge and outward power usage monitoring on my phone including graphically which has been of tremendous assistance optimising both power collection and understanding use.
It’s great to watch in detail the instantaneous effect of tilting those panels that can and minimising shade effects on others
Cabin roof panel shown here tilted.

 

[boomerangben]

From the summary:
'Renewable diesel fuel, specifically hydrotreated vegetable oil (HVO) ICEs can provide the largest global warming potential (GWP) reductions for diesel craft provided the fuel is produced using waste feedstocks.'
To me this seems to be the most obvious way of reducing the global warming footprint from yachting, in combination with a change of usage patterns that no doubt will come with the much higher fuel prices that we can expect the for the next couple of decades.

Indeed. But the question I have is that with aviation and other big transport user also looking at HVO from waste, just how much waste is there from which to get HVO? We are already growing bio fuels so I wonder if the HVO option is purely academic and not at all realistic

 

[Sea Change]

Indeed. But the question I have is that with aviation and other big transport user also looking at HVO from waste, just how much waste is there from which to get HVO? We are already growing bio fuels so I wonder if the HVO option is purely academic and not at all realistic

Could end up like the wood pellets situation- made sense when waste from sawmills was re-processed in to fuel, but when demand outstripped supply whole trees were being ground down to turn in to pellets. Absolutely mad, and not cheap.

 

[BabaYaga]

Indeed. But the question I have is that with aviation and other big transport user also looking at HVO from waste, just how much waste is there from which to get HVO? We are already growing bio fuels so I wonder if the HVO option is purely academic and not at all realistic

That is a very good question of course. My understanding is this. On one hand, there is by far not enough sustainable feedstock to supply all of todays vehicles (road, air, farming, industrial, shipping...) relying on fossil fuels. On the other hand there is quite a lot of "waste" of different kinds that is not used as a resource at all (because the handling and technology required does not make it competitive at present fossil fuel prices) or is only used as a source for producing industrial heat, whereas a propulsion fuel would have a higher value.
So I think as societies we must make the investments necessary to tap into that resource and direct these fuels at sectors that are not easily electrified. A tiny bit may trickle down to the yachting sector.

 

[Stemar]

I'm utterly amazed that with today's technology and prices, sunset in popular anchorages in the Caribbean ushers in a chorus of Honda suitcase generators firing up. Often on large cats with plenty room for solar. I really don't understand it. The payback time for a solar/lithium upgrade would be pretty swift.

For me the payback time is about 1 second after I don't have to start a noisy generator and, unless it's buried in the bilges and drowned in sound insulation, it's noisy in that scenario