Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Money. Need I say more?
Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?
- Thread starter Tranona
- Start date
Neeves
Well-known member
Looking at the summaries of the negative issues of the all electric dream, house bank and propulsion bank I wonder if we are not harsh.
Thinking of the charter market - does the charter party move long distances or do they simply move from one nearby idyllic anchorage to the next one nearby. I ponder this as some charter yachts, I'm thinking of multihulls built for the charter market, do not seem to be built with heavy weather in mind. That forward cockpit in some 'Sunsail' Leopards and the vertical windows in Lagoons. Our experience of the forecast being wrong resulted in seas breaking over our cabin roof, which is just short of 3m above the water line (a forward cockpit with patio doors seems a poor choice for such conditions) - but perfect after a 2 hour sail to the next anchorage - and little need for long engine hours. Vertical windows are ideal to keep the sun off, but not for those same breaking seas.
We also sit at dinner of a Friday night and watch a string of yachts heading the 10nm to the weekend on a courtesy mooring, sails neatly stored, engines flat chat (batteries full from either/both shore power (in the marina) and courtesy of a week's Australian sun.
Our, Australia's, 'go to' cruising ground is the Whitsundays - beautiful, gorgeous weather, lots of safe anchorages on a multitude of islands - all within a few hours of each other. Perfect for a 2-3 hour gentle sail with an electric motor for entering the bay and leaving.
Many local yachts do participate in social racing, in the summer there is a race every evening, a race on Wednesday afternoon and races, plural at the weekend. The starts and finishes are effectively off the marinas. All on the protected waters of Pittwater or Sydney's photogenic harbour. No real need for diesel.
The charter market is a big market for yachts - 'our' yachts would be expensive if they did not offer a base load of business. Electric looks feasible - could the issues of the after market not be overcome....?
We looked at Leopard before we committed to Josepheline, went round the factory, but were discouraged by the inability to customise - Sunsail set the specification and the yachts are built for them, not those who finance the business - so why not electric it would suit the charter market.
Just some alternative thoughts
Jonathan
Thinking of the charter market - does the charter party move long distances or do they simply move from one nearby idyllic anchorage to the next one nearby. I ponder this as some charter yachts, I'm thinking of multihulls built for the charter market, do not seem to be built with heavy weather in mind. That forward cockpit in some 'Sunsail' Leopards and the vertical windows in Lagoons. Our experience of the forecast being wrong resulted in seas breaking over our cabin roof, which is just short of 3m above the water line (a forward cockpit with patio doors seems a poor choice for such conditions) - but perfect after a 2 hour sail to the next anchorage - and little need for long engine hours. Vertical windows are ideal to keep the sun off, but not for those same breaking seas.
We also sit at dinner of a Friday night and watch a string of yachts heading the 10nm to the weekend on a courtesy mooring, sails neatly stored, engines flat chat (batteries full from either/both shore power (in the marina) and courtesy of a week's Australian sun.
Our, Australia's, 'go to' cruising ground is the Whitsundays - beautiful, gorgeous weather, lots of safe anchorages on a multitude of islands - all within a few hours of each other. Perfect for a 2-3 hour gentle sail with an electric motor for entering the bay and leaving.
Many local yachts do participate in social racing, in the summer there is a race every evening, a race on Wednesday afternoon and races, plural at the weekend. The starts and finishes are effectively off the marinas. All on the protected waters of Pittwater or Sydney's photogenic harbour. No real need for diesel.
The charter market is a big market for yachts - 'our' yachts would be expensive if they did not offer a base load of business. Electric looks feasible - could the issues of the after market not be overcome....?
We looked at Leopard before we committed to Josepheline, went round the factory, but were discouraged by the inability to customise - Sunsail set the specification and the yachts are built for them, not those who finance the business - so why not electric it would suit the charter market.
Just some alternative thoughts
Jonathan
Tranona
Well-known member
Everybodys' principles have a price.
For all the huffing and puffing of the Eco warriors the cost stops them from acting on their principles. while most of the discussion here has been on the technical issues the reality is that even when these are solved people only buy voluntarily if they perceive value to them individually. Nowhere is this more obvious in this context than in the rapidly expanding market of hybrid powered large multihulls or widebeam barges for residential cruising on inland waterways.
Pete7
Well-known member
Indeed, for fun a couple of years ago I put together a list of what it would take to convert to electric propulsion. 10kW electric motor and 15kWh 48v bank. The total was £14000 and have a range of 45-60 miles. That compares with £7000 for a new Volvo 30hp. Given we burn 100 - 150L of diesel a year in the existing VP 2003 and its working well, doesn't enamor me to get the check book out.
When I see folk driving large mobo's that could burn my annual diesel consumption going from Port Solent to Poole for the day, why bother?
Tranona
Well-known member
See my reply above. You are right about both the charter market and the day sailor.
In charter boats there have been attempts to go both hybrid and all electric. Dufour built several 43' cats (the Atoll model) specifically for charter and leased them to operators in the Caribbean. Diesel generator in the cockpit and electric motors in each hull with a sophisticated control system to mange the demands of the domestic side, including AC and propulsion. Pretty much a failure killed by high cost and maintenance difficulties while offering little benefit to charterers. The Salona 46 is an all electric performance sailing boat aimed at the Adriatic charter market as well as the "green" market in Europe and the US
salonayachtsuk.com/s46 only been out a couple of years so probably too early to say whether it will be a success. Suspect that the £40k+ premium over the diesel will influence many potential buyers, as will confidence that the range will be sufficient for charterers given the limited shoreside infrastructure in many key charter locations.
I have no doubt that electric propulsion in all its forms will become more common but developments will be driven by what they offer to buyers, not primarily by any eco benefits, although of course buyers will inevitably try to include this in their justification, ignoring the fact that they really are not there. Rather the opposite as the report shows the carbon cost is greater.
boomerangben
Well-known member
There are some very big caveats with regard to the conclusion made in the report: that HVO and eGasoline are sourced from waste and other low global warming potential sources. It also states that the leisure sector accounts for around 0.5% of transport GHG emissions. It also indicates doubts over the availability of such fuels in the future - quite frankly with aviation, road transport and no doubt all other sectors looking at HVO options, competition will be stiff. Which will make pricing volatile. This then could leave the market exposed to less sustainable production of such fuels, competing with food production, bio fuel production etc.
The major sticking point with electric is range and cost. It is interesting that the report appears to conclude that PWC would be better off electric in a commercial setting (presumably that mean hire by the hour type operations )
The major challenge is clearly for the mobo sector where range and energy density issues are insurmountable at present. I think this is where the report has focused its attention, since there are 8 different types of mobo in the report and only a single sailing category, so I would imagine there is some work to do in terms of analysis of sailing boats and sustainable propulsion.
I wonder if “range anxiety” is more of a psychological stumbling block than practical. I would love to have a Mystery 35. It comes with a 70l fuel tank, giving a range of perhaps 150 miles, which I suspect would see me through a season or more. I would rarely look to do more than 50 miles a day (10 hours continuous motoring) in normal use so a 70nm battery range would be more than adequate to get me to the nearest marina, even in the NW of Scotland. Ah but it’s not as good as the 150 miles the diesel gives me…….. I need that. But hang on, the only time I’ve needed anything like that range is on delivery trips. I could recharge it while sailing providing the boat will do 7kts under sail. Maybe that is pushing it for a 35’ yacht with a sub 30’ waterline. But let’s think. If I throw out the fuel tank, lines, filters and of course the fuel itself - that must be nearly 100kg, the engine and sail drive too with oil, lines, electrics, alternators and water - perhaps 200kg. Then there is the gas locker why have 30kg of gas cylinders (which may or may not be obsolete in a few years) , I have over 300kg of spare displacement for batteries, drive and electric cooker, plus a small tank of kerosene for the heater. That could give a bit more than 70 mile range. But most of the time I would be doing a couple of miles at each end to do what I would use the boat for - sailing so having a relatively low regen ability is probably not that much of an issue. The major issue is cost of course. So the status quo is unlikely to change. But as with all new technologies, we need consumers who are prepared to invest in embryonic high cost technologies to prove, refine and popularise it to make it affordable.
If you have a mobo, your going to need to buy a big farm that grows oil seed rape or soya or palm oil
The major sticking point with electric is range and cost. It is interesting that the report appears to conclude that PWC would be better off electric in a commercial setting (presumably that mean hire by the hour type operations )
The major challenge is clearly for the mobo sector where range and energy density issues are insurmountable at present. I think this is where the report has focused its attention, since there are 8 different types of mobo in the report and only a single sailing category, so I would imagine there is some work to do in terms of analysis of sailing boats and sustainable propulsion.
I wonder if “range anxiety” is more of a psychological stumbling block than practical. I would love to have a Mystery 35. It comes with a 70l fuel tank, giving a range of perhaps 150 miles, which I suspect would see me through a season or more. I would rarely look to do more than 50 miles a day (10 hours continuous motoring) in normal use so a 70nm battery range would be more than adequate to get me to the nearest marina, even in the NW of Scotland. Ah but it’s not as good as the 150 miles the diesel gives me…….. I need that. But hang on, the only time I’ve needed anything like that range is on delivery trips. I could recharge it while sailing providing the boat will do 7kts under sail. Maybe that is pushing it for a 35’ yacht with a sub 30’ waterline. But let’s think. If I throw out the fuel tank, lines, filters and of course the fuel itself - that must be nearly 100kg, the engine and sail drive too with oil, lines, electrics, alternators and water - perhaps 200kg. Then there is the gas locker why have 30kg of gas cylinders (which may or may not be obsolete in a few years) , I have over 300kg of spare displacement for batteries, drive and electric cooker, plus a small tank of kerosene for the heater. That could give a bit more than 70 mile range. But most of the time I would be doing a couple of miles at each end to do what I would use the boat for - sailing so having a relatively low regen ability is probably not that much of an issue. The major issue is cost of course. So the status quo is unlikely to change. But as with all new technologies, we need consumers who are prepared to invest in embryonic high cost technologies to prove, refine and popularise it to make it affordable.
If you have a mobo, your going to need to buy a big farm that grows oil seed rape or soya or palm oil
Tranona
Well-known member
I don't have a reference for it at the moment, but Nestaway Boats who are E Propulsion agents have done exactly what you describe with a Sadler 29. Slightly lower range - 50 miles at 4 knots but found adequate for coastal cruising between the Solent and Weymouth. don't think they have had any takers on a commercial basis, even though the material cost is "only" 30% or so more than a 25hp diesel although of course a retrofit would be a lot of work.
Why? I think post#241 is the main reason. Electric for that posters boat is available know, proven technology and a close substitute for the current petrol outboard, but 3 times the price once you include batteries and controls. Other reasons might include worries about resale values, future cost of replacement batteries, loss of independence. all very well sitting by the fire on a cold January evening constructed a compelling case for going electric in your particular circumstances as you see. Very different from actually acting on it, spending the £12k and chopping up your boat to fit it all in, throwing away a perfectly good diesel engine and hoping it works out. Or buying a new Salona S46, ticking the extras list and the pen poised over the electric option at £40k+.
Your last sentence is what one hopes for, but at this point I think we are one step back. We know the fundamental problem is energy density of batteries. the motor and control technology is already there and when the battery situation changes, usable consumer products will follow quickly.
Sea Change
Well-known member
It's a tiny minority, sure, but there are people out there in the real world using electric propulsion on yachts.
Here's one such, I met him a few back in Grenada. He's only got 400w of solar and AGM batteries but he's made it here.
OCEAN STRIDER
The Caribbean is a pretty good place to go electric. Every time you go sailing it's 15kt on the beam, the anchorages are open and spacious, and there's abundant sunshine.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
My money issue isnt lack of principle, but a perfectly good 4 year old outboard. If I use 20l of petrol a year I’m doing badly, so why throw it away and spend a lot on repowering
dunedin
Well-known member
But surely one of the main conclusions of the ICOMIA report that dumping a perfectly good engine to replace by an electric drive is a bad thing to do, as the carbon footprint of materials, manufacturing and shipping of the new motor is likely higher than continuing to run the existing engine (and Chiara’s engine hours are presumably quite low with such a fast tri).
It is Reduce, Reuse, Recyle - so minimising use of existing engine but retaining is likely best.
dunedin
Well-known member
Precisely. Same with our dinghy outboard - 20 years old, bought on eBay - and struggle to use more than 6L petrol a year.
Ditching for a £2k Torqeedo or ePropulsion would be the worst thing to do in terms of carbon footprint (though many people are doing so, more because they prefer the electric simplicity and not because it helps the environment).
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
We bought an electric dinghy outboard when our petrol one called time.
Sea Change
Well-known member
Are they dumping the old outboard in landfill? Probably not. It will be sold to continue being used by someone else, or the materials will be recycled.
(Or, I suppose, kept in the shed as a backup for several years before going to one of the above fates).
Neeves
Well-known member
The constant comment 'its not sensible to throw out a perfectly good diesel (inboard) or petrol (outboard) and replace withe electric' is a red herring. Surely the discussion should centre round new builds.
With the increased numbers of electric cars will not the cost of the electric motor reduce ? (though I'd have thought the increased volume from marine to actually not be significant). The big savings might come from different battery technologies, many of which are on the horizon - now.
In 10 years time the opportunities might have changed.
Its interesting - Lithium holds centre stage today (replacing fossil fuel - gas) for the galley - but despite the efforts of the few the electric galley is hardly common place. If the market is not accepting the advantages in the galley having that same market accepting electric for propulsion will take decades - even if the costs reduce.
But I said something similar of carbon sails - and was wrong.
Jonathan
Sea Change
Well-known member
Depends which market. Electric galley is not at all unusual amongst liveaboards. Second place to gas obviously, but growing.
dunedin
Well-known member
Except that as boats last so much longer than cars the bulk of the fleet is already on the water - the number of new builds each year is relatively small.
But for new builds, as has already been posted many times further up, an electric serial hybrid with DC generator range extender is already mature technology and a very attractive option for a serious cruising boat - other than the very substantial cost premium (possibly £50k or so?). Hence mainly on £1m plus new builds.
Lots of simpler battery electric new builds for the marina based day / weekend boats.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Mine would convert easily, and one day I will.
Tranona
Well-known member
I have made the point several times that there are sectors where electric is viable.
However the main demand is for marina and mooring based boats in temperate climates, used for recreational purposes covering low annual mileages. The experiences of people like this and the oft quoted Uma simply do not translate to the majority of users. The Hiscocks, and later Pardys went all round the world without an under sail alone.
Really no different from your electric setup - very appropriate for your boating lifestyle, but not for the majority who use their boats in a very different way.
Neeves
Well-known member
Serious question:
Are the numbers of Liveaboards actually significant in terms of yacht ownership? How many of these Liveabords rely on Lithium. I can think of 'prominent' liveaboards who are not lithium users
Or to put it another way - how many liveaboards are there? how many use gas, how many use solar and Lithium?
I know that Lithium currently has high profile - that does not make it significant as a proportion. I agree with Lithium for the galley - I just don't see the numbers.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
I'm finding difficulty accepting that the out put of Benny, Jenny, Bav and the myriad of multihull builders (with Diesel engines and lead battery banks) is 'relatively small'. I'm finding it difficult to identify the 'lots' of simpler battery powered new builds - but do accept the technology is mature - I think you are saying nothing new.
Jonathan
