Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?

[Refueler]

Yes I agree

Our Harbour require 2 means of population to enter or leave the harbour
That means 2 engines on a power boat an a sail boat has 2 being an engine and the sails

I had at one time entering harbour my engine cut out and there noss no wind so I had to be towed in ad back to my mooring by the port police who were kind enough to tow me without reporting me

It really depends on the ship traffic

We also must have a pilot exemption as the ship requirement is the the port is a compulsory pilot port

We do not need exemption - even for my pal who had the 60ft Schooner Milda .... Ventspils is a Pilot Compulsory Commercial Port. As Private 'Pleasure boats' its not required ... until reaching a size .. which TBH - I cannot recall what that is as its way bigger than I ever will have !!

 

[Refueler]

I didn't spot them thinking you'd need new batteries every 10 years. That's an interesting take... I'm not sure that expecting a modern EV type battery to give up the ghost just because it's old even if it's had only a comparative handful of cycles is entirely valid. I wonder if anyone has a 10 year old EV battery with minimal use to check it's health....?

As I've said over many different threads on the future of boat power plants, I think the key risks to ICE in boats are 2 fold. legislation based on "rich yotties still polluting when average joe bloggs has had to give up their petrol car" and continued availability of fuel at an acceptable price.

Based on both of those, it would seem wise to be putting some research into making alternatives viable if we want our children to also enjoy our hobby.

Batterys - especially Li based ... will deteriorate even when not used - particularly if in this market - when they will be required to be ready to motor .. full charge .. and then left for significant periods unused ..

I feel the 'powers that be' driving us towards E power have ignored the actual physical requirements and limitations.

Leaving a diesel engine idle for long periods is not uncommon .. has barely any effect on the engine ... it still basically works.

Try that with e-power and batterys ....

 

[dunedin]

The ICOMIA report is a very helpful contribution to the debate - and one of the few objective sources of actual data on this topic (as opposed to internet opinions).
Another good thing is that it covers a large part of the market, not just UK - and most types of boats with motors.

The downside of course is that with such wide coverage, it cant cover every detail. Hence in its 9 categories (or use cases) there is space for just one “sailing yacht”. In the real world this covers everything from a Squib / XOD racing off a mooring, through cruiser/racers, local cruising yachts, yachts crossing oceans - and from perhaps 5m and a 2hp outboard up to a 24m Oyster with big engine and multiple generators.
It appears that their use case was a perhaps c.10m yacht - as assumed a 28hp engine and 70L fuel tank for the diesel version.
Seems a reasonable example, but there is a wide variability of sailing yachts and how they are used.

Again the 24 hours annual engine usage looks low to many of us. But this was apparently taken from recorded engine hours data From many boats, so as an AVERAGE better than any of us can give. Many on here go on about ”boats that never leave their marina berth”, and the Squib or J70 may rarely resort to using an engine at all. On the other hand, the relative handful of liveaboard cruisers may have 200+ engine hours, even if use sails a lot. It’s an average.

The report conclusions are quite helpful though
- one solution doesn’t fit all
- don’t mandate electric propulsion for boats - as total carbon costs would be worse in most cases (plus no infrastructure for charging on anchor etc)
- don’t rip out a working diesel engine to fit electric (but consider if need to change)
- sustainable fuel like HVO could reduce carbon for both existing fleet and new build.
Seems pretty sensible to me.

And there are solutions for cruising yachts coming on the market which look very attractive (if currently very pricey) - for a new build boat that has the speed to do serious recharging, a serial hybrid solution looks very interesting. An electric motor for silent emissions free (at boat) transit in and out of berth and short hops, plus a DC generator range extender (running on HVO) to give all the range you need burning less fuel than a conventional diesel X-Yachts Xc 47 - Oceanvolt

And the ICOMIA report makes a great case for coastal cruising boats being given access to HVO fuel at the same discount levels as Inshore Waters craft now have in the UK. Electric propulsion is far more practical for most inshore waters craft than seagoing, so seems odd that the DfT only permits the duty incentives for inland craft. Something I believe the RYA and CA are seeking to try to encourage to change.

 

[ylop]

Many of my friends who bought them we don't see any more (unless we drive to them in my 3 litre petrol guzzler) as they all suffer from range anxiety and we don't have a charger at home.

Not sure where you are but that sounds like a bit of an excuse. I’ve not gone anywhere on the mainland which would cause real range anxiety but some places do need some thought. If I was going somewhere that the recipient was keen to see me I have a 3 pin “granny” charger. It *could* be an issue for leisure boaters switching to electric but given most boats don’t actually go far or often it might not be for the typical floating caravan - but they use the least fuel in the first place.

 

[flaming]

Batterys - especially Li based ... will deteriorate even when not used - particularly if in this market - when they will be required to be ready to motor .. full charge .. and then left for significant periods unused ..

I feel the 'powers that be' driving us towards E power have ignored the actual physical requirements and limitations.

Leaving a diesel engine idle for long periods is not uncommon .. has barely any effect on the engine ... it still basically works.

Try that with e-power and batterys ....

There are currently no "powers that be" pushing anyone towards E power for boats. There is no current, or proposed, legislation in effect for boats.

However, I think that your assumption is that someone with an electric boat would not have a best use program to extend the life of their battery... Charging to 100% and then leaving it would be an obvious no-no... It would not be beyond the wit of man, or current tech for that matter, to be able to remotely trigger charging to happen only on the day before you actually needed the power... Marina based boats generally having their own power supply. Several EV manufacturers already provide best practice advice for how to treat an EV in terms of charge state etc if you are leaving it for an extended period. That would seem to be a good place to start if you were laying up an electric boat for the winter.

The key question though is not "why an electric boat won't work for me". but "what happens to boating if fuel stops being readily available and/or affordable?" Probably not an issue for most of those on the forum, but more of an issue for those companies who want to still be in the marine sector in 20 years or more....

 

[davethedog]

We have a friend out here in the Caribbean that has an electric motor for his Sigma (removed the diesel and replaced with electric) alongside a very large LIfePO battery bank.....however the limited range he has, as well as the constant issues with the system, is a big fat NO for me!

 

[Tranona]

Are you a moderator of this forum if so move it its UK and EU is not the whole world

Africa is much bigger the the UK and the EU for that matter

Don't get so touchy. actually the report (if you read it) covers the whole world, but only really about boating.

 

[Refueler]

There are currently no "powers that be" pushing anyone towards E power for boats. There is no current, or proposed, legislation in effect for boats.

However, I think that your assumption is that someone with an electric boat would not have a best use program to extend the life of their battery... Charging to 100% and then leaving it would be an obvious no-no... It would not be beyond the wit of man, or current tech for that matter, to be able to remotely trigger charging to happen only on the day before you actually needed the power... Marina based boats generally having their own power supply. Several EV manufacturers already provide best practice advice for how to treat an EV in terms of charge state etc if you are leaving it for an extended period. That would seem to be a good place to start if you were laying up an electric boat for the winter.

The key question though is not "why an electric boat won't work for me". but "what happens to boating if fuel stops being readily available and/or affordable?" Probably not an issue for most of those on the forum, but more of an issue for those companies who want to still be in the marine sector in 20 years or more....

My expression 'Powers that be' was not intended as legislative ... but that will come no doubt - but the 'greenies' pushing this crap on us .. trying to embarass us with our foul evil fuel guzzling carbon chuffing engines.

Look at Govts already with their failed Bio Fuel guidelines - they couldn't actually continue to make then rules as it all fell apart with not being able to supply the volumes required.
EV wheher it be cars or boats ... same will happen I reckon ...

First I expect Inland Waterways to bring in E power rules ... then its a slippery slide ..

Marina's - where will they get the power from ? Given that many are already restricting power to boats based on the upsurge of electrical gear on many boats today ... Will they up the ampage of lines on the pontoons ? Install E power charge points ? Maybe even put a girt big diesel generator behind the shed to power it all ??

Battery management ... yes - of course ... imagine Harry Bloggs who knows next to naff all about e power ... TBH - boating is rife with the Harry Bloggs people ... sorry to be blunt.

 

[flaming]

My expression 'Powers that be' was not intended as legislative ... but that will come no doubt - but the 'greenies' pushing this crap on us .. trying to embarass us with our foul evil fuel guzzling carbon chuffing engines.

Look at Govts already with their failed Bio Fuel guidelines - they couldn't actually continue to make then rules as it all fell apart with not being able to supply the volumes required.
EV wheher it be cars or boats ... same will happen I reckon ...

First I expect Inland Waterways to bring in E power rules ... then its a slippery slide ..

Marina's - where will they get the power from ? Given that many are already restricting power to boats based on the upsurge of electrical gear on many boats today ... Will they up the ampage of lines on the pontoons ? Install E power charge points ? Maybe even put a girt big diesel generator behind the shed to power it all ??

Battery management ... yes - of course ... imagine Harry Bloggs who knows next to naff all about e power ... TBH - boating is rife with the Harry Bloggs people ... sorry to be blunt.

Given the average age of boats in a marina, I don't think the marinas will actually have to do anything for ages... But even then, with the typical use being weekends then with the boat sat for a week, the charging can afford to be a lot slower, on its home berth, than we accept in cars. So the general upgrade will not be major.

The point about Harry Bloggs though is that the current Harry Bloggs does at least have some experience of running an ICE car. So hopefully understands that it needs oil and coolant etc. The Harry Bloggs of the future may not. And thus he may feel a lot more at home with an electric setup than a diesel...

And of course if you abuse an electric setup by charging it to full and leaving it, then assuming the the battery management is half way ok, the worst that happens is that his expensive battery wears out a bit faster. But it will still work when he pushes the throttle.
If however he lets his diesel run out of oil, or doesn't notice a lack of coolant etc etc... He's now an RNLI statistic... And may need a new engine...

But the main point I think is that the future of being able to put fuel in our boats is not assured. Either due to cost/ availability or just straightforward legislation. We should therefore applaud people spending their own money finding out if option a, or option b, or option c might be viable. But instead there is this weird tendency to rubbish alternatives.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

People do seem to get very angry about electric propulsion, and batteries, and immediately mount their highest horse to denigrate it, and often calling the early experimenters and adopters fools. Not useful, guys. Electric motors and li batteries may or may not be the long term solution, but we can be 100% certain that fossil fuels are not. So best we tinker around with other ideas and see what works, surely.

 

[rogerthebodger]

If however he lets his diesel run out of oil, or doesn't notice a lack of coolant etc etc... He's now an RNLI statistic... And may need a new engine...

This is where good monitoring of your engine comes in to ensure you don't damage the engine

But the main point I think is that the future of being able to put fuel in our boats is not assured..

We just go down to the local chippy and get there waste chip oil and run our diesel on that

 

[flaming]

This is where good monitoring of your engine comes in to ensure you don't damage the engine

Yes exactly. And people who've been brought up running ICE engines understand that.

The people buying boats in 20 years time though... It's more than possible that significant numbers will never have owned any ICE engines at all before they buy a boat....

 

[bluerm166]

This is certainly a useful link by Tranona for such a complex subject and comes at a time when many must in parallel be discussing / have discussed the merits of getting an EV.
Obviously the weight of factors involved differ ,particularly it seems when a smallish sailing boat is considered ,but I personally don't mind when posters convey their own contributions in their own words and I even welcome learning of experience from other continents.
The report echoes my less measured thoughts re. our existing newish diesel although I am surprised that the average annual usage can be as low as 35 hours. With a few East Coast trips from Kent and an annual 2/3 weeks trip to the Netherlands we clock up an average 150 hrs.Probably retirement makes the difference.Not sure ,as apparently in aviation,that this HVO diesel substitute will actually be available ,although we will be eating more vegetables.
Looking forward to any reports that split up the 'sailing yacht' category in detail.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Yes exactly. And people who've been brought up running ICE engines understand that.

The people buying boats in 20 years time though... It's more than possible that significant numbers will never have owned any ICE engines at all before they buy a boat....

There are lots of people currently who have no idea what happens under the bonnet of a car or even haw to change a flat tire on a car

Mt daughter and wife are a case in point as they call me or a garage if anything goes wrong

 

[Bouba]

I have a Torqeedo electric outboard....and this is what I charge it with...

 

[dunedin]

We have a friend out here in the Caribbean that has an electric motor for his Sigma (removed the diesel and replaced with electric) alongside a very large LIfePO battery bank.....however the limited range he has, as well as the constant issues with the system, is a big fat NO for me!

I think most early DIY ones electric installations are a bit basic. The modern professional systems are rather different - but so too are the prices.

 

[Refueler]

But the main point I think is that the future of being able to put fuel in our boats is not assured. Either due to cost/ availability or just straightforward legislation. We should therefore applaud people spending their own money finding out if option a, or option b, or option c might be viable. But instead there is this weird tendency to rubbish alternatives.

I applaud pioneers - honest.

But sadly this subject is not one of pioneers .. the tech is there already ... its sad fact that a lot of rubbish is given out online purporting to be expert .. many of whom I would like to revisit 2 - 3yrs down the line and see how well they are holding up.

There is enough expert help out there to be successful with it - as long as the constraints are properly realised. I illustrated a while back - the Riga Tourist boats that ply the canals and the main river .. these are not small run-abouts ... they are serious Edwardian style canopy boats .. charging is of course sorted for them as they have fixed itinerary etc. But it shows it works.

I do not wish to go E route though even though I am sailboat .. the engine is an important auxiliary to me ... regardless of how short or long its run .. my 25 is a motor sailer .. heavy full body hull and 4 tons .. mmmmm my 38 is a racer and can actually survive with a smaller engine than my 25 ! But still do not fancy it.

I do not detect anyone rubbishing alternatives ... I just see people referencing to what they want / need / see / understand.

As to Harry Bloggs and diesel engine crapping out .. ,ost people have alarms - LED's and BEEPs when things go awry - such as no oil etc. The E systems I've seen so far - motor stops before batterys get to alarm condition. Not really comforting ? Save the batterys by cutting power .. not save the boat ??

On Models - when ESC cuts power because battery is at LVC .. we have option to close throttle and open again to get a second burst of power to get back control .. not a gret deal - but it can be enough .. I don;t see anything like that on a boat. Maybe it is ??

 

[Dellquay13]

deleted, caught reply button by mistake

 

[Dellquay13]

The initial question was about how Green is electric propulsion for boats. I think whether people in 20 years will know how to use ICE, or even if fuel is available is a bit of thread drift. To drift further down the line of newcomers in 20 years, when I bought my yacht, sailing was an unknown technology from centuries past but I have tried to learn about it.
I found the headline report by Tranona interesting, and an echo of my own conclusions.
While Fossil fuel has to go, as I recently said on a different thread, I believe my greenest option is not to blithely follow the urgings of the RYA in recent times to convert to EV, but to retain and best maintain my existing little diesel engine, using used parts where I can for as long as I can, and to use it as little as possible.

Back to more thread drift;
I may be totally wrong, but can I run my 1GM10 on 100% bio fuel if I am very careful to not let it get old or watery, or the other usual BioFame issues? I only use 15-20l a year, would veg oil bought little and often not be a viable answer?
I’m not seriously planning on trying veg oil, but since I can no longer apparently leave my 30l tank topped up for the winter without the B7 going off, If I have to keep buying 5l as needed through the season, can it be cooking oil from the supermarket instead?

It looks like I will be giving the last 10l of the b7 I filled up on last spring to a marina neighbour for their chinaspacker, if I can’t trust it to be reliable next spring.

 

[thinwater]

Will ICE fuel be available?

I clearly remember an energy crisis in the mid-70s and absolute predictions that we would be out of oil by 1990. Prices would be through the sky. In fact, not only has there been fracing, but ethanol, biodiesel, and a number of other alternatives have become affordable (not as cheap as diesel, but many times less than the 1970s predictions).

It seems pretty clear to me that some energy-dense fuel will be available for trucks and aircraft, and there will be marine engines that can use it. When that time comes I will not be a Ludite; I will embrace it. Solar, wind, and lithium will be a part of that energy future, and they will be very good for many things, but I doubt they will be all of it. I just bought another ICE car, not feeling we were quite there. Maybe the next one will be electric. (I went on a business trip last week. Two days involved drives of ~ 800 km. Some trips are farther, up to 1100 km. That's just a common 8-11 hour interstate drive in the US. Electric would waste a day each way.)