Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?

Bouba

Well-known member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
43,313
Location
SoF
Visit site
It may just come to that !!

Risking all out ban ... the Green Brigade really p' me off ... not because I am in the Oil / Ship Business .. but because they do not put forward realistic alternative.
They forget that a major % of living today - products are derived or produced because of oil. So shut down totally all oil .. what are we going to do then ?

E-power already is showing that we can power transport - BUT - its the behind the scenes support structure that is woefully lacking in terms of where that charge power comes from.

How much conventional power is consumed by manufacturing wind turbine blades ? transporting to site and erecting .. then dismantling .. transporting to the landfill for disposal ? Wonder what the comparison of conventional power for this vs the xx years of use of the trurbine ?
Outside of the climate sub forum, no one here is stop oil....but we also don’t want to be ‘I’m not going to change until the whole world changes’ either....we are an affluent part of an affluent society (in general) so we have some kind of duty to show the way
 

flaming

Well-known member
Joined
24 Mar 2004
Messages
15,940
Visit site
I do not disagree .. think you extrapolate my thinking too far ...

Of course its an incremental evolution .. but my position is that people like Stop OIl and many other groups are not willing to take that path.
I think that what annoys me, and JSO to an even greater extent, is that the opportunity to really push the iterative process over the last 20 years or so was largely missed. And as such we're much further down the road than we should be to bad times, and nothing like as far down the road to decarbonising as we should be.

The first offshore windfarm was commissioned in 1991. 32 years ago. Nuclear reactors have been available for considerably longer than that. The only reason we aren't a lot further down the road of decarbonising our energy grid is that we haven't done it, not that it wasn't possible, financially viable or desirable.

And therefore you see the pushback - "just stop oil".
 

Refueler

Well-known member
Joined
13 Sep 2008
Messages
20,876
Location
Far away from hooray henrys
Visit site
Outside of the climate sub forum, no one here is stop oil....but we also don’t want to be ‘I’m not going to change until the whole world changes’ either....we are an affluent part of an affluent society (in general) so we have some kind of duty to show the way

Be very difficult or at least extremely hypocritical of any of us to be STOP OIL .... given the production and materials in todays boats !!
 

Bouba

Well-known member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
43,313
Location
SoF
Visit site
Be very difficult or at least extremely hypocritical of any of us to be STOP OIL .... given the production and materials in todays boats !!
Exactly...we are all taking baby steps...eventually it adds up to something significant...let’s hope we have time
 

Boathook

Well-known member
Joined
5 Oct 2001
Messages
9,116
Location
Surrey & boat in Dorset.
Visit site
I invested in an epropulsion last year as I got fed up with my malta having problems with the carburettor jets. So far very impressed with it but I haven't done any long runs with it. I might invest in a 'fast' charger for it so I can top up quickly when ashore after a long run. I don't have the capacity to charge it on board as my main propulsion is sails plus a 30hp outboard with limited electric output. The existing solar panels just keep the main batteries charged during the summer. I'm looking at more panels and will possibly have to build a goal post system for them.

Looking at my main engine use for last year it rang for around 75 hours in total with one 'run' being 8 hours as I crossed the channel to Alderney after the wind disappeared. The shortest run was half hour as I moved anchorages. The engine uses between half and 3/4 a gallon an hour, dependant upon seas and speed.
When I worked, I motored for around 20 hours to reach a destination as part of the holiday; I'm not sure that I would do that now I'm retired. Most of the places I prefer I'm at anchor or on a mooring buoy. Any battery bank should give me around 25 hours range and I would require a way of quick charging, the same as I do for fuel, in and out ...

Batteries for my boat ... The boat is fairly light for its size being a cat, and extra weight does knock performance even for a 60's designed boat.

I think electric motors are coming for boats and suspect canal boats will be first. Boats just used for day trips will be good next but as mentioned elsewhere marinas needs the infrastructure and the boat needs to be in a marina. I suspect that boats towed might be next when stored at home, but that then brings in towing weight limits.

I just think that we need a mix of ICE, electric, etc for many more years.
 

Bouba

Well-known member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
43,313
Location
SoF
Visit site
I invested in an epropulsion last year as I got fed up with my malta having problems with the carburettor jets. So far very impressed with it but I haven't done any long runs with it. I might invest in a 'fast' charger for it so I can top up quickly when ashore after a long run. I don't have the capacity to charge it on board as my main propulsion is sails plus a 30hp outboard with limited electric output. The existing solar panels just keep the main batteries charged during the summer. I'm looking at more panels and will possibly have to build a goal post system for them.

Looking at my main engine use for last year it rang for around 75 hours in total with one 'run' being 8 hours as I crossed the channel to Alderney after the wind disappeared. The shortest run was half hour as I moved anchorages. The engine uses between half and 3/4 a gallon an hour, dependant upon seas and speed.
When I worked, I motored for around 20 hours to reach a destination as part of the holiday; I'm not sure that I would do that now I'm retired. Most of the places I prefer I'm at anchor or on a mooring buoy. Any battery bank should give me around 25 hours range and I would require a way of quick charging, the same as I do for fuel, in and out ...

Batteries for my boat ... The boat is fairly light for its size being a cat, and extra weight does knock performance even for a 60's designed boat.

I think electric motors are coming for boats and suspect canal boats will be first. Boats just used for day trips will be good next but as mentioned elsewhere marinas needs the infrastructure and the boat needs to be in a marina. I suspect that boats towed might be next when stored at home, but that then brings in towing weight limits.

I just think that we need a mix of ICE, electric, etc for many more years.
I think that is a fair summary....I think that the real problem is if road transport electrify really quickly...faster than expected...this would leave the distribution of retail fuel at real risk of contracting fast....so if marinas can’t get a steady supply of fuel and they are not forward thinking enough to get fast electric charging...the leisure boating with engines could be between a rock and a hard place
 

Pye_End

Well-known member
Joined
5 Feb 2006
Messages
5,163
Location
N Kent Coast
Visit site
Be very difficult or at least extremely hypocritical of any of us to be STOP OIL .... given the production and materials in todays boats !!
Making things out of oil puts considerably less CO2 into the atmosphere than burning it directly in an engine.

It's a numbers game - how much of what we pump out of the ground do we then just burn? Out of that proportion, how much of it goes into electricity, transport, and leisure yachts? Suspect the last category is pretty small (motor boats maybe significant) - more worthwhile putting the effort into bigger things probably.
 

lustyd

Well-known member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
12,508
Visit site
but what about the generation of the power to charge the batterys ... in my mind ICE gives a better run time per power value ? E power is limited in run time and the source of power to charge the batterys is generally Gas or Petroleum ... or even worse coal powered station ...
In the UK at least, this is almost never coal now, and the grid is trending away from other fossil fuels too (see link for stats). We've also been trending away from nuclear but that will likely change once the new power stations come online. I don't think source of power is really a problem going forwards, but will take decades for the infrastructure to get there.
National Grid: Live
 

Bouba

Well-known member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
43,313
Location
SoF
Visit site
In the UK at least, this is almost never coal now, and the grid is trending away from other fossil fuels too (see link for stats). We've also been trending away from nuclear but that will likely change once the new power stations come online. I don't think source of power is really a problem going forwards, but will take decades for the infrastructure to get there.
National Grid: Live
It’s probably more economical to supply excess electricity to France than it is to adequately distribute it around the UK
 

Tranona

Well-known member
Joined
10 Nov 2007
Messages
42,541
Visit site
I think electric motors are coming for boats and suspect canal boats will be first. Boats just used for day trips will be good next but as mentioned elsewhere marinas needs the infrastructure and the boat needs to be in a marina. I suspect that boats towed might be next when stored at home, but that then brings in towing weight limits.

I just think that we need a mix of ICE, electric, etc for many more years.
That has been happening for some time, partly because there is an active new boat market where buyers can decide what sort of propulsion and energy supply system they need. Much easier to build in than convert existing boats. However, even with a large area of the top of the boat available for solar to really make it work shorepower is still needed particularly if going all electric and the charging infrastructure is inadequate. Hybrid is viable as it can use the "spare" power of the ICE when motoring to charge batteries which can then be used for either propulsion or domestic.

While all of this reduces emissions at the point of use it does not offset the higher emission cost of building the boat and making the batteries. That is the key message of the report is that the 50% increase in carbon cost of alternatives such as electric and hybrid comes from the raw material, manufacturing and maintenance/replacement cost of the batteries over the life of the boat.
 

MisterBaxter

Well-known member
Joined
9 Nov 2022
Messages
421
Visit site
How much conventional power is consumed by manufacturing wind turbine blades ? transporting to site and erecting .. then dismantling .. transporting to the landfill for disposal ? Wonder what the comparison of conventional power for this vs the xx years of use of the trurbine ?
Those calculations have been done repeatedly and thoroughly and are readily available with a quick Google search.
Unfortunately the science around climate change tells us very clearly that if we are to avoid really catastrophic global warming, we need to change our ways fairly drastically and rapidly. There might be things that we consider essential or normal that will have to cease or change radically to be sustainable. It's not comfortable to think about this stuff so some people choose not to, which is understandable.
 

Refueler

Well-known member
Joined
13 Sep 2008
Messages
20,876
Location
Far away from hooray henrys
Visit site
Those calculations have been done repeatedly and thoroughly and are readily available with a quick Google search.
Unfortunately the science around climate change tells us very clearly that if we are to avoid really catastrophic global warming, we need to change our ways fairly drastically and rapidly. There might be things that we consider essential or normal that will have to cease or change radically to be sustainable. It's not comfortable to think about this stuff so some people choose not to, which is understandable.

I call to the bench many of the online calculations .. I cannot agree on some of the generalisations they do .. no ggod me quoting which as overall both sides of the matter use flawed and questionable arguments.

I know full well that I work in a market that will eventually fade away .. but at 68 now - i am confident that I will not see it.

I also agree that mankind has failed to take the road to soring it earlier enough ... and climate denial unfortunately still prevails in many circles. That will slow down any real progress ...

I live in a Port Town that has enjoyed economic success until recent years .. it created own municipality rules over and above national. One of them is a ban on any wind power units other than the giant Electric Co's.
If you want Solar - then a project and application ...
All projects go through vetting and then a set of Ventspils Rules are stated ...

What I am illustrating is an example of a Council that 100% agrees that action must be taken to reduce climate damage - but rules are applied that limit the action to what THEY decide is acceptable ... which call me cynic - but just so happens to line certain pockets.

I am seriously considering installing a small wind station by the river to provide all power to my boats and BBQ area .. removing the need for power from town grid and 100m cables down the garden. Town rules say no ... mmmmmm lets see !!
 

Bouba

Well-known member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
43,313
Location
SoF
Visit site
I call to the bench many of the online calculations .. I cannot agree on some of the generalisations they do .. no ggod me quoting which as overall both sides of the matter use flawed and questionable arguments.

I know full well that I work in a market that will eventually fade away .. but at 68 now - i am confident that I will not see it.

I also agree that mankind has failed to take the road to soring it earlier enough ... and climate denial unfortunately still prevails in many circles. That will slow down any real progress ...

I live in a Port Town that has enjoyed economic success until recent years .. it created own municipality rules over and above national. One of them is a ban on any wind power units other than the giant Electric Co's.
If you want Solar - then a project and application ...
All projects go through vetting and then a set of Ventspils Rules are stated ...

What I am illustrating is an example of a Council that 100% agrees that action must be taken to reduce climate damage - but rules are applied that limit the action to what THEY decide is acceptable ... which call me cynic - but just so happens to line certain pockets.

I am seriously considering installing a small wind station by the river to provide all power to my boats and BBQ area .. removing the need for power from town grid and 100m cables down the garden. Town rules say no ... mmmmmm lets see !!
If you build a portable structure (ie it can be unbolted) will that get you around the planners ?
 

rogerthebodger

Well-known member
Joined
3 Nov 2001
Messages
13,698
Visit site
It is clear to me that the world is warming . What the reason I don't know. Every has their own opinion.

The current view sees to b that the burning of fossil fuel is adding CO2 in the the atmosphere reducing the radiation of heat into space thus keeping the world temperature more stable.

It seems that the current view is to keep the word temperature to less than 1.5 degrees or the like

What my concern is the question what it the temperature increased more than the said 1.5 degrees or higher what will plan 'B' be so that we and all life on this planet an survive in higher temperatures.

There seems to be a one stop shop without any considerations for if we fail to limit the rise in temperature.

Any one any views
 

lustyd

Well-known member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
12,508
Visit site
survive in higher temperatures
It's not about surviving higher temperatures. The 1.5 degree rise is the target because it's easier to measure and many other things appear to rest on that figure. The issue will be about surviving without food, clean water, and surviving the increasingly violent storms in addition to surviving extreme temperatures that will make current tropical areas uninhabitable due to high heat while also making other regions uninhabitable due to extreme cold.

It doesn't matter whether you understand the reasons. Scientific consensus globally agrees on the causes and the actions we must take. Your part in this is to comply, not to contribute.
 

lustyd

Well-known member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
12,508
Visit site
It’s probably more economical to supply excess electricity to France than it is to adequately distribute it around the UK
They don't need it, and it's not about economics. Realistically they'll be importing renewable power from China over ultra high voltage systems before we could even hope to finish a power station, given our failings at infrastructure projects.
 

rogerthebodger

Well-known member
Joined
3 Nov 2001
Messages
13,698
Visit site
It's not about surviving higher temperatures. The 1.5 degree rise is the target because it's easier to measure and many other things appear to rest on that figure. The issue will be about surviving without food, clean water, and surviving the increasingly violent storms in addition to surviving extreme temperatures that will make current tropical areas uninhabitable due to high heat while also making other regions uninhabitable due to extreme cold.

It doesn't matter whether you understand the reasons. Scientific consensus globally agrees on the causes and the actions we must take. Your part in this is to comply, not to contribute.

Yes but what if the actions our leaders and Scientific consensus does not prevent all the effects you quote.

Lack of clean water , food and increasing violent storms is possibly cause civil unrest.

My boat is setup so I can escape civil unrest and make water have solar power so posible have a chance to survive

And yes I do try to reduce my usage and waste of the resources I use
 

lustyd

Well-known member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
12,508
Visit site
Yes but what if the actions our leaders and Scientific consensus does not prevent all the effects you quote.
Probably global war and massive redistribution of 8Bn people. Arguably we ought to start being nicer to migrants in the short term and setting a good example so that when we need to move people are nice in return.
Given that the UK is incapable of supplying sufficient fresh water for the current population in the current climate, I'd say it's unlikely our leaders are the answer here.
My boat is setup so I can escape civil unrest and make water have solar power so posible have a chance to survive
Good luck with that. You won't be able to buy a spare o-ring, let alone membranes for water makers. Your passport will be useless and you'll be unable to return to land for food. Add to which, where would you even sail once global weather patterns change and the tropics are uninhabitable? Pretty much left with the arctic or hurricane/cyclone troubles.

There's no "prepper" way out of this, we have to focus on sorting the issues, or bury our heads in the sand and hope to be gone by the time it really kicks off. Unfortunately the consensus is that this will hit over the coming few decades so it's current and next generation that will suffer.
 

rogerthebodger

Well-known member
Joined
3 Nov 2001
Messages
13,698
Visit site
1704808903462.jpeg

images


Or

1704809039546.jpeg
 
Top