Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?

[wombat88]

Venetians know a thing or two about boats....see the conclusion.

VEZ - S.A.T.E. Italy

 

[Dellquay13]

I’m acutely aware of my own hypocrisy in trying to keep my consumerism to an absolute minimum, while having a modest income as a maintenance worker in the very wasteful commercial AudioVisual sector where about 90% of failed kit is replaced not repaired. I am paid to put about 8-10 repairable 65”TVs into the general waste bins behind pubs every week. 35 years ago rental was the norm and I was expected to get soldering components for a fix at the 1st visit. Any kit beyond repair would be stripped for spares and the rest down to the screws saved for the scrap lorry.
As a subcontractor I can’t rock the boat while neither the AV industry nor the pub chains want any repair processes when they can have fast simple replacement and minimal downtime.
As I see it, only a big legislative stick will effect a change amongst my customers.

 

[Caladh]

Filling your tiny outboard tank from a jerrycan on a pitching deck….

You’re obviously not cute enough !

 

[Stemar]

Too right

And what is the alternative scenario?

Jonathan

We reduce our waste involuntarily and a significant percentage of the population starves, and not just in the 3rd world, but anywhere where the population isn't self-sufficient. I doubt I'll see, it and I hope my children won't, but the following generation is likely to.

As I see it, only a big legislative stick will effect a change amongst my customers.

Or the availability of good repaired kit at a significantly lower price than the new, but I look at my TV and think that if it goes wrong, the cost of labour for diagnosis and repair isn't going to be cheap, even if the parts are available, and it'll still be a seven year old TV.

 

[Tranona]

I agree with nearly everything you say, except about the sailing boat - there are many of us very far removed from the AWB they chose, for us the sums may look quite different. I for instance in a light 22'er need a couple of horsepower for five or ten minutes either end of a sail, with decent regen it'd be perfect for me. I don't motor to places - I don't sail to a schedule or a fixed destination so there isn't the need. The sailing is the point of the exercise for me, the motor is genuinely an auxiliary.

If you go back to post#14 I made the point that broad brush research like this based on numerical averages of large populations hide the fact that the extremes of the distribution can be very large segments. What you describe is one of those numerically large but proportionately small segments and actually represents a significant target market for electric propulsion. It is the market where makers such as Torqeedo and E Propulsion have done well. At the other end of the sailing boat spectrum there are the various electric and hybrid systems available for large boats where the key driver is an all electric boat using a combination of fossil fuels, solar and regeneration to provide the energy for both domestics and propulsion. There are other segments particularly in the displacement motor boat sector where electric is viable or even dominant.

For the sailing boat market it is worth looking at the Oceanvolt site where they show examples of the type of boats that use, or can use their systems. This clearly shows the two segments I identified and a distinct lack of the "middle" occupied by medium sized (25- 50') cruising boats. This is an excellent example of the market determining viable products. Hybrid Marine originally set out to address the middle segment and very quickly realised that a technically viable product would not meet buyers' needs so identified other segments to address.

You see a similar pattern in the EV market development. The early adopters were at the extremes - at one end crude little cars like the G Wiz or the various "mini" city cars which were not alternatives to small mainstream cars and the other end of high performance and luxury cars that not only emphasised the performance boosting properties of electric or hybrid but could absorb the high cost. It is only after 10 years that cars which address the mass market have become available, and then only because of legislation not demand from consumers. The 30%+ price premium of these mass market cars reflect the real monetary cost of the technology, but hide the higher carbon cost.

Fortunately it is unlikely that legislation will force changes in the recreational boating market and product availability will be determined by the reaction between providers and users to the technology, most of which will be derivative from the automotive and industrial power industries.

 

[Tranona]

Venetians know a thing or two about boats....see the conclusion.

VEZ - S.A.T.E. Italy

Predictable - and similar comments made about hydrogen in the ICOMIA report

 

[Dellquay13]

We reduce our waste involuntarily and a significant percentage of the population starves, and not just in the 3rd world, but anywhere where the population isn't self-sufficient. I doubt I'll see, it and I hope my children won't, but the following generation is likely to.

Or the availability of good repaired kit at a significantly lower price than the new, but I look at my TV and think that if it goes wrong, the cost of labour for diagnosis and repair isn't going to be cheap, even if the parts are available, and it'll still be a seven year old TV.

The majority of the hospitality sector now relies on domestic brand LED screens which fail at 18-36months when used for 14hrs a day.
However there are lots of old plasma screens in Wetherspoons that I fitted around 20 years ago still running on obsolete signal formats

 

[Sea Change]

the same principle applies to EVs although not so extreme IF the EV uses only electricity from renewables and runs for high mileages (over 100k) in its lifetime when the lower carbon cost of powering the car may offset the greater carbon cost of making it over its lifetime if it manages it on one battery.

EVs become lower carbon than ICEVs after 10-20,000 miles, depending on how clean the grid is.

 

[lustyd]

EVs become lower carbon than ICEVs after 10-20,000 miles, depending on how clean the grid is.

Could we trouble you for a source? If it's not too much trouble, of course Otherwise it's just people writing fun things on a forum. I don't doubt the stat, but I'm certain others will.

 

[Sea Change]

Could we trouble you for a source? If it's not too much trouble, of course Otherwise it's just people writing fun things on a forum. I don't doubt the stat, but I'm certain others will.

Random example here:
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/
It's not a contentious figure, unless you're a habitual reader of the Telegraph.

 

[lustyd]

I didn't say it was contentious, I just pointed out that without referencing an actual study you're just some random on the Internet saying words. This fuels the naysayers so has the opposite effect you were hoping for. With the link it's a strong point.

 

[dunedin]

As ever we don't seem to be able to have a thread on boat propulsion without diverting off into cars instead. As the ICOMIA report makes clear, there are BIG differences between electric cars and electric yachts.

 

[dukeofted]

Seems like the biggest issue with boating is lack of use on average. The solution is shared ownership or chartering so that less boats need to be manufactured.

 

[Sea Change]

I didn't say it was contentious, I just pointed out that without referencing an actual study you're just some random on the Internet saying words. This fuels the naysayers so has the opposite effect you were hoping for. With the link it's a strong point.

You're right, I was being a bit lazy. It's five seconds on Google to source these things.
It's very easy to assert things like 'it must be greener to keep my old car/boat/boiler running than replace it with a newer one' but as the saying goes, analysis without numbers is just opinion. These matters aren't always intuitive.

 

[Tranona]

You're right, I was being a bit lazy. It's five seconds on Google to source these things.
It's very easy to assert things like 'it must be greener to keep my old car/boat/boiler running than replace it with a newer one' but as the saying goes, analysis without numbers is just opinion. These matters aren't always intuitive.

But what that did in the random example you chose is find a press report that included 2 studies, the first of which supported your original comment and the second supported the one I drew mine from (the ICOMIA report). To be fair the Reuters report did observe the findings of such research depends mainly on the assumptions made and the sources and types of data.

The headline however was for the "favourable" findings so would have been picked up by the Guardian and probably front page, whereas the sceptical Telegraph would either ignore it or trash it with the other bits of research which are less favourable. Each of course responding to what their readers want to hear.

 

[Sea Change]

Yes it depends on the methodology.
Volvo infamously did a study a few years back where they showed that the break-even mileage was much higher. But they didn't factor in the substantial energy that goes in to discovering, extracting, refining, and transporting fossil fuels.
If you want to make batteries look bad, you can ignore the second-use static storage applications for 'end of life' batteries. Or you can ignore the role that recycling will play once there are enough end of life EV batteries to create demand.

 

[Ribtecer]

Some of us already do

What lock away carbon using oil?

You old planet saver you.

 

[Neeves]

As ever we don't seem to be able to have a thread on boat propulsion without diverting off into cars instead. As the ICOMIA report makes clear, there are BIG differences between electric cars and electric yachts.

You are correct in your first sentence.

Just out of interest what are the fundamental differences and what are the similarities?

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Yes it depends on the methodology.
Volvo infamously did a study a few years back where they showed that the break-even mileage was much higher. But they didn't factor in the substantial energy that goes in to discovering, extracting, refining, and transporting fossil fuels.
If you want to make batteries look bad, you can ignore the second-use static storage applications for 'end of life' batteries. Or you can ignore the role that recycling will play once there are enough end of life EV batteries to create demand.

I have read that Volvo will start to use green steel in the near future, coming from SSAB.

I note the demand for links and references

Fossil free steel

and to satisfy those who think every thread eventually degenerates into one on anchors.....

Viking use SSAB HT steel in their anchors and if they had not used SSAB steel I would not be getting the links from SSAB as I put myself on SSAB's mail list.

Jonathan

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Anchors are an important diversion of this thread. We’ll end up doing a fair bit more anchoring if we’re electric auxiliary powered. No spare energy to just push the tide regardless.