Boat propulsion. Is electric actually green?

[Chiara’s slave]

only last year I retired my 15 year old plasma tv and am now using a LED TV, how I miss the picture quality of the plasma

They were useful in winter, too. You could feel the heat coming off them. About half a kw for a 50”, compared to about 90w for an LED.

 

[Alicatt]

They were useful in winter, too. You could feel the heat coming off them. About half a kw for a 50”, compared to about 90w for an LED.

Very true, our gas bill went up after removing the plasma tv, while the solar panels supplied the electricity for keeping the tv running.

 

[Tranona]

What is 'the current pattern of usage'?

Read the report

 

[Refueler]

It's not about surviving higher temperatures. The 1.5 degree rise is the target because it's easier to measure and many other things appear to rest on that figure. The issue will be about surviving without food, clean water, and surviving the increasingly violent storms in addition to surviving extreme temperatures that will make current tropical areas uninhabitable due to high heat while also making other regions uninhabitable due to extreme cold.

It doesn't matter whether you understand the reasons. Scientific consensus globally agrees on the causes and the actions we must take. Your part in this is to comply, not to contribute.

There are various serious consequences of the warming even by only a fraction of a degree :

Flooding of low lying land by increased sea levels
Reduction of Arctic / Antarctic Ice - causing inbalance in atmospheric conditions
Extinction of various species of not only animals but plant life as well
Extreme weather conditions

It is not generally advertised - but an example of a Govt's planning .....

Singapore is engaged in land creation - dumping thousands of tons of sand / earth / rocks to increase its land mass. It's such a large project that neighbours such as Malaysia have banned export of sand etc and tried to halt the expansion.
That's a well known project - but it also encompasses another part :

The idea of a sub-sea city ... yes Singapore has discussed and looking at creating Singapore that is under water !

To me - that seems wrong way .. surely put the expertise to work to stop the climate change - not just act to live with it ???

 

[Tranona]

The other thing that the report seems to miss is that the batteries that come out of the boat at end of life (and I'm still super skeptical about the replace every 10 year claim) can be recycled.

The current estimate is that for an tesla battery at end of life, of the roughly 800kg of material, less than 50kg is not recyclable.

And even before then there will be a use for old "capacity limited" batteries to use as storage. If you're putting them in a container, for example, the fact that what started out as 100kWh is now 60 is not an issue when the battery is second hand and cheap. It's only when the space you have is limited that you are worried about deterioration.

The life suggested is actually 12.5-15 years, not 10 based on the 2-3% loss in capacity pa. So for an active life of 45 years means 2-3 batteries. Given that the range of the electric option is given as 24 miles (4 hours at 6 knots) a 50% reduction in capacity makes the limitations even more stark, particularly for the second replacement at 25+ years when the then owner is faced with a huge bill (if he can get a replacement!).

It is not clear from the summary whether recycling the batteries has been included in the end of life or maintenance costs - maybe £2.5k on the full report will tell.

This is yet another example of what I described in posts#173 and 176. Many of these variables are unknown because there is no real world data available so they are all educated guesses.

 

[lustyd]

To me - that seems wrong way .. surely put the expertise to work to stop the climate change - not just act to live with it ???

I don't disagree, but given we're all confident our leaders will screw up plan A someone may as well be working on a plan B

 

[rogerthebodger]

The idea of a sub-sea city ... yes Singapore has discussed and looking at creating Singapore that is under water !

To me - that seems wrong way .. surely put the expertise to work to stop the climate change - not just act to live with it ???

I don't disagree, but given we're all confident our leaders will screw up plan A someone may as well be working on a plan B

We do need a plan B in case we cannot top climate change (global warming) keep the temperature increase to target

My main home is at 6000ft above current sea level so should be OK but my coastal property will be underwater

Does anybody know what the sea level rise could be if all the ice in the world melts so I can build a marina st the level above the current sea level

 

[Laser310]

I confess I didn't read the whole thread...

But, as is usual in these discussions, what i did see is a focus on the technology, convenience, and applicability of electric propulsion to leisure boating.

Most people really think that under net zero, life might more or less continue as it does now.., just with everything being electric, and that while there will be some hurdles, this is mostly an achievable goal.

News Flash:

Not only is this not an achievable goal.., it is not even the goal!

There is no credible plan to produce and distribute electricity on the scale needed to move from fossil fuels to electric for all the nation's present energy consumption on the time scale required by Britain's legally mandated net zero commitments.

The plan is that we use less; a lot less. There simply will not be electricity for leisure activities of the scale that we enjoy today.

The demand for electricity will outstrip supply to such an extent that either prices will rise tremendously, or there will be rationing - but most likely both will be used.

Nor is there any credible plan to produce batteries in the quantity required for all global automobile travel,, trucking,, etc to be electric.., with enough left over to put them in yachts.

This is simply not going to be permitted.

Also consider the effect on incomes and wealth. There is no credible plan to make global shipping zero carbon. There will be much less shipping, and what does occur will be vastly more expensive. Without easy cheap air and auto travel, tourism will decline greatly (about 10% of UK GDP, and more on the continent). With less disposable income, and unavailability of goods produced abroad, retailing will crash. Food is going to become a lot more expensive: much of the world's fertilizer is produced from natural gas. We already see European countries regulating this and nitrogen production generally by closing farms. And, because of the reduction in shipping, food import will be greatly reduced, and what does get in will be much more expensive.

nobody except the oligarchy is going to have the money to buy a boat.

I think in the end net zero targets will be rolled back or abandoned - but there will be significant disruption first

 

[Refueler]

A bit of drift.

Cruise ships are going gas. I believe the next launchings, 2025/6 from Princess will be gas - though whether the infrastructure will be there in all the desirable ports has not been reported.

Jonathan

Many Shipping Co's are looking at Gas powered ... because the change from conventional fuel only means modification of existing engines. It could also bring back - some say - of steam turbines .. unlikely but who knows.

I have a 'pal' who looks after Bunkering of vessels with LPG ... its growing each day ... Cruise Ships are only a part of it ..

 

[Laser310]

Many Shipping Co's are looking at Gas powered ... because the change from conventional fuel only means modification of existing engines. It could also bring back - some say - of steam turbines .. unlikely but who knows.

I have a 'pal' who looks after Bunkering of vessels with LPG ... its growing each day ... Cruise Ships are only a part of it ..

nobody advocating for net zero thinks gas is an acceptable alternative to oil.

just look at the opposition to North Sea gas production.

 

[Refueler]

Yes it depends on the methodology.
Volvo infamously did a study a few years back where they showed that the break-even mileage was much higher. But they didn't factor in the substantial energy that goes in to discovering, extracting, refining, and transporting fossil fuels.
If you want to make batteries look bad, you can ignore the second-use static storage applications for 'end of life' batteries. Or you can ignore the role that recycling will play once there are enough end of life EV batteries to create demand.

Please explain how to recycle Lithium cells as example ...

Unlike Lead Acid - most of a Li cell is junk once its reached EoL ...

 

[Refueler]

My LED TV is on a lot longer than 14 hours a day…it’s several years old now

My Wifes TV is on 24hrs a day ... the LG threw its hand in at ~5 yrs ... so paid similar money but bigger / better screen on an unknown brand via high street shop with same warranty as the LG etc. 4yrs and its still top notch ...

 

[flaming]

Please explain how to recycle Lithium cells as example ...

Unlike Lead Acid - most of a Li cell is junk once its reached EoL ...

Weird. These guys claim that over 80% is recycled.
Lithium-ion Battery Recycling Technology | Fortum

Where do you get the idea that most of a Li cell is junk?

 

[Refueler]

nobody advocating for net zero thinks gas is an acceptable alternative to oil.

just look at the opposition to North Sea gas production.

NS Gas is a bad example to use actually ... its more Boundary Politics that hassles that.

 

[Refueler]

Weird. These guys claim that over 80% is recycled.
Lithium-ion Battery Recycling Technology | Fortum

Where do you get the idea that most of a Li cell is junk?

Interesting ..... like most - beliefs are what filter down through ...

Will have to ask contacts more about it and see if its supported.

 

[Sea Change]

nobody advocating for net zero thinks gas is an acceptable alternative to oil.

just look at the opposition to North Sea gas production.

Gas is a useful improvement on oil in terms of emissions. Many people advocating for a green transition accept that highly efficient gas powered electricity production, possibly with carbon capture if that becomes viable, will play a role in decarbonisation. The ability of gas power plants to rapidly load shift makes it a good match for renewables.

We don't have to reach 0% carbon emissions to reach net zero.

To put this in a yachtie perspective, I've cut my cooking gas consumption by at least 95%, by switching to solar/battery cooking. But to reach 0% I'd probably have to at least double the size of my battery bank. Diminishing returns kicks in. I think a 95% improvement for modest cost is worth doing.

 

[Refueler]

OK .. here's my typically old guy view on it ...

1. Net Zero is a farce ... its a convenient way for the powers to show favourable numbers.
2. Carbon offset as used by airlines when we buy a ticket etc. is another con.
3. Whatever alternative ... nuclear - gas - bio .... etc will have its opponents
4. Humans want their 'convenience' modes of transport etc.

We are basically the only 'animal' that 'shits' on its own space !

 

[Sea Change]

The good thing is that regardless of what the older generation thinks, and regardless of what measures are put in place by governments, we will continue to switch to renewables for economic reasons.

 

[Refueler]

The good thing is that regardless of what the older generation thinks, and regardless of what measures are put in place by governments, we will continue to switch to renewables for economic reasons.

mmmmm I ponder that your use of the term 'renewables' may be a bit too wide sweeping .... yes I agree that renewables is a good path to go .. but today it unfortunately also includes not so economic ...

 

[Laser310]

Gas is a useful improvement on oil in terms of emissions. Many people advocating for a green transition accept that highly efficient gas powered electricity production, possibly with carbon capture if that becomes viable, will play a role in decarbonisation. The ability of gas power plants to rapidly load shift makes it a good match for renewables.

We don't have to reach 0% carbon emissions to reach net zero.

i agree with all of that...

but i'm not the one making policy.

The UK is getting out of the gas production business.

Banks and investment firms are refusing to finance gas production globally.

Sure: LNG tankers can deliver it (emitting carbon) but as others get out of the business too, prices will soar.

No matter what.., the net zero timetable, if followed, is going to lead to soaring electricity prices, and scarcity.

There is just not going to be much electricity for leisure purposes.