Bluewater boat for under £40k: Moody or Jeanneau?

[Richard10002]

Spotted that on eBay. Hell of a lot of boat for the money! But steel boats scare me...

I’ve got a narrowboat these days. The hull sides and top were 10mm, 6mm, and 4mm, when new. They are still the same 17 years later. Every single ship you see will be made of steel. Not sure what there is to worry about with steel boats?

 

[Tranona]

I’ve got a narrowboat these days. The hull sides and top were 10mm, 6mm, and 4mm, when new. They are still the same 17 years later. Every single ship you see will be made of steel. Not sure what there is to worry about with steel boats?

You have obviously missed the long rambling threads recently on the subject. Steel yachts are not well received by the market when a few years old and are therefore cheap. This one is a prime example of a lot of really good kit and interior joinery and fittings wrapped up in a shell that is prone to corrosion. The problem is that you cannot see the areas where the corrosion starts without dismantling the interior. The normal steel construction methods creates plentiful situations for corrosion to start either by places where water rests, or attachment of materials that hold moisture such as wood and fabrics. At least this boat does not have much wood tacked on outside such as teak decks, although you can already see spots of rust around welded joints and places where the protective coating has been breached.

Steel boats, like wooden ones require constant maintenance of the fabric as once corrosion gets established it can be a nightmare to repair. Have a look around boatyards and you can see the consequences of neglect on steel boats.

There are of course many positives and if one has the skills and willingness to keep up the maintenance they can be viable long term boats. However they are almost always (like this one) either one offs or heavily customised or personalized limited production boats so appeal to a narrow market.

 

[Tranona]

Just received a survey for a mid 1980s Sun Fizz. It was a low priced boat, but wow what an eye opener.
I know that this is just one example and does not mean that every boat of this type will have problems, but it does somewhat reinforce my concerns about this type of design. Osmosis, movement around the keel/hull joint, deformation of the hull when the boat is sat on its keel, rudder showing evidence of repair around the shaft (collision/grounding damage?), rudder structurally unsound and waterlogged. I guess it was cheap for a reason!

How common are these sorts of faults? The boats I've owned to date have been considerably older yet not had any such problems.

You will see all of those faults on British built fin keel boats of similar age, although hopefully not on the same boat. Sounds like that one had a hard life and lots of owners' abuse and neglect..

 

[davidlhill]

A quick Google throws up this list:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...al-status-eu-countries-certain-territories_en

Which suggests that certain territories may be in the EU but at the same time exempt from VAT rules. E.g. the Canaries.
Of the places where VAT rules do apply, the ones of note to me are Madeira and the Azores.

But hopefully it's not a problem in practise, certainly it does sound daft to go round the world on your boat and come home to a VAT bill for no apparent reason.

It does indeed sound daft! Espcially as VAT is a transaction tax and there hasn't been one. Anyway, I'm still a few years from having to worry about that in practice!

 

[Graham376]

It does indeed sound daft! Espcially as VAT is a transaction tax and there hasn't been one. Anyway, I'm still a few years from having to worry about that in practice!

In reality, the chances of being caught out are pretty rare. Of the tens of thousands of boats returning to UK waters from the continent and Ireland every year, of the few who are inspected how many are asked to prove where they've been for the last few years as opposed to "where have you just come from?" Paperwork for many UK registered boats purchased outside the EU shows the transaction actually took place within EU, to avoid VAT on re import.

Up to individuals whether they want to risk it or not, I wouldn't.

 

[Tranona]

It does indeed sound daft! Espcially as VAT is a transaction tax and there hasn't been one. Anyway, I'm still a few years from having to worry about that in practice!

It has been like that for 25 years - and there has been a "transaction" under the VAT definition as I explained earlier. Everyday words get specific meanings when used in laws!

In fact this came about as a way of maintaining price parity for imported goods against taxed EU goods, so it is in effect an import duty.

 

[davidlhill]

It has been like that for 25 years - and there has been a "transaction" under the VAT definition as I explained earlier. Everyday words get specific meanings when used in laws!

In fact this came about as a way of maintaining price parity for imported goods against taxed EU goods, so it is in effect an import duty.

Interesting reading, those notices you refeered to earlier.

From Notice 236: Returned Goods Relief: S2.5 (waiver of 3 year time limit)

".....professional and personal effects returned with home coming expatriates"

I think a good argument can be made that after a 5 year (say) circumnavigation a yacht is a personal effect belonging to a home coming expatriate lol.

 

[alant]

Spotted that on eBay. Hell of a lot of boat for the money! But steel boats scare me...

Better not go on a Saga cruise then.

 

[Tranona]

Interesting reading, those notices you refeered to earlier.

From Notice 236: Returned Goods Relief: S2.5 (waiver of 3 year time limit)

".....professional and personal effects returned with home coming expatriates"

I think a good argument can be made that after a 5 year (say) circumnavigation a yacht is a personal effect belonging to a home coming expatriate lol.

I have avoided bringing in returning residents relief for two reasons. First it has its own specific rules (and your suggested scenario does not qualify) and very few people can actually make use of it.

So, you can't "argue" - you can only meet the requirements - or not!

 

[davidlhill]

I have avoided bringing in returning residents relief for two reasons. First it has its own specific rules (and your suggested scenario does not qualify) and very few people can actually make use of it.

So, you can't "argue" - you can only meet the requirements - or not!

I hope you don't mind me continuing to question, as you clearly have far more knowledge about this than me, but the Returning Goods Relief notice seems to me it could apply to a returning yacht.

2.5 Will HMRC waive the time limit for customs duty and or VAT RGR in certain cases
Yes, we may allow a waiver depending on circumstances. You can still claim customs duty and or VAT RGR on re-imported goods which were exported more than 3 years ago as long as you:

meet all other RGR conditions in the checklists at sections 5 and 6 as appropriate
inform us about the special circumstances that make it necessary to exceed the time limit at re-importation

sections 5 and 6 talk about only regular maintenace, importer and exporter being the same (to be clear this is a EU bought VAT paid yacht). Why wouldn't a yacht be a personal effect of a returning expatriate? I haven't checked the definition of an expat as per HMRC but if I'm out of the country for 5/6 years isn't tht expat status?

 

[Tranona]

Why wouldn't a yacht be a personal effect of a returning expatriate? I haven't checked the definition of an expat as per HMRC but if I'm out of the country for 5/6 years isn't tht expat status?

The returning resident rules are quite specific, and very narrow. The key point is that you do not become non resident in the UK just by being out of the country for aa long time. "Ex patriate" is just an everyday term and does not have any legal status. There are varying types of non resident but for simplicity because most fall into this category are those that take up residence in another state and pay taxes etc there, even though they may still have income and assets in the UK. Typically they are people who have taken up employment abroad or have emigrated. If they subsequently decide to return to UK and take up residence (in a formal way - not just visiting) then they are allowed to bring personal possessions, including a boat back with no duty or tax to pay. Inevitably there are restrictions. The boat must be owned for a period of time beforehand and there are restrictions on use and resale after importation. It is, however irrelevant where it was built or whether VAT has been paid previously.

Most UK ocean voyagers are still formally resident in the UK, although some UK citizens (as opposed to residents) may well be non resident and wish to take up residence in the UK at the end of their voyage. The former are not eligible for this particular relief and have to rely on returned goods relief, the latter may be able to use it.

So, it is up to each individual to be aware of what the rules are that might affect them and consider ways in which they can take advantage or avoid being penalised. Of course individuals' plans change and now the rules might change, but you have no control over external changes, only your own reaction to them.

 

[davidlhill]

Tranona,

many thanks for that.

Regards,

David

 

[Richard10002]

You have obviously missed the long rambling threads recently on the subject. Steel yachts are not well received by the market when a few years old and are therefore cheap..

Havent missed anything. I am very conscious of the fact that steel yachts are not well regarded. On the canals, GRP boats are not well regarded, and steel reigns.

I am also conscious that steel corrodes, whereas GRP seems to be very difficult to destroy

However, having become one, I just find it strange that thousands of steel narrowboat owners, whose hulls are equally difficult to get at and inspect, seem to keep them going for years and years. It's fairly straightforward to have a hull survey, every now and then, when the thickness is checked, amongst other things. Thus, it might not be a bad thing to take advantage of the fact that steel yachts are held in poor regard, and therefore relatively cheap.

I understand the concerns, and fully appreciate that, if my boat sinks on most of the canals in my part of the world, I can actually walk ashore, whereas the same opportunity isnt available mid Atlantic.

Having said that, how many steel yachts actually corrode through in a way that endangers life, rather than in a way that is noticeable, and resolveable with a bit of new plate and some welding?

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Most canal boats stay in fresh water, most yachts are in salt water.

The difference that makes is incredible.

And steel with it's slower corrosion in freshwater water has other advantages that make it ideal for inland waterways - the boats are easy to build with simple developable shapes with an acceptable easthetic, the ruggedness of steel is comes in handy especially with the way they handle and stone canalside structures, there's no stability issues with using quite thick gauge hull plates, and it feels like a traditional material for such boats. Win, win, win, win!

Apart from the ruggedness, none of that's the case with yachts.

 

[jordanbasset]

Why do I have a strange feeling of foreboding as to where this thread is going

 

[alant]

Havent missed anything. I am very conscious of the fact that steel yachts are not well regarded. On the canals, GRP boats are not well regarded, and steel reigns.

I am also conscious that steel corrodes, whereas GRP seems to be very difficult to destroy

However, having become one, I just find it strange that thousands of steel narrowboat owners, whose hulls are equally difficult to get at and inspect, seem to keep them going for years and years. It's fairly straightforward to have a hull survey, every now and then, when the thickness is checked, amongst other things. Thus, it might not be a bad thing to take advantage of the fact that steel yachts are held in poor regard, and therefore relatively cheap.

I understand the concerns, and fully appreciate that, if my boat sinks on most of the canals in my part of the world, I can actually walk ashore, whereas the same opportunity isnt available mid Atlantic.

Having said that, how many steel yachts actually corrode through in a way that endangers life, rather than in a way that is noticeable, and resolveable with a bit of new plate and some welding?

Canal boats seem to keep hitting & bumping things, if the married actors programme is the usual driving standard, so steel is absolutely necessary, regardless of corrosion.

 

[newtothis]

Canal boats seem to keep hitting & bumping things, if the married actors programme is the usual driving standard, so steel is absolutely necessary, regardless of corrosion.

To be fair, I think that's more to do with the amount of wine Pru and Tim get through each episode. We have a drinking game based on trying to match them. It's hard work.

 

[dslittle]

You could try looking on the Eastern Seaboard of the USA as well - do an 'advanced' search on Yachtworld, and type in as many constraints (re size, type, age, price etc) as you like, and see what comes up.
I did a search like this based on your requirements outlined so far, and I was amazed by the number of what appear to be very nice yachts for sale, at prices much less than what similar yachts might be selling for in Europe (even when allowing for the poor exchange rate of the GBP vs US$).
This was one of the many that 'came up' -
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/Tartan-37-3052326/Fort-Pierce/FL/United-States

My friends who used to sail with me did exactly this. They had never owned a boat before and had quite limited time sailing. Although they had no children, they had the same aspirations as you. Bought a boat on the West Coast of USA and eventually arrived in Aus where they sold it (and are now regretting having done so!!!). Their blog is at
http://richandger.com/
and I think that it will make very interesting reading for you...
Good luck whatever your final choice

 

[Tranona]

Havent missed anything. I am very conscious of the fact that steel yachts are not well regarded. On the canals, GRP boats are not well regarded, and steel reigns.

I am also conscious that steel corrodes, whereas GRP seems to be very difficult to destroy

However, having become one, I just find it strange that thousands of steel narrowboat owners, whose hulls are equally difficult to get at and inspect, seem to keep them going for years and years. It's fairly straightforward to have a hull survey, every now and then, when the thickness is checked, amongst other things. Thus, it might not be a bad thing to take advantage of the fact that steel yachts are held in poor regard, and therefore relatively cheap.

I understand the concerns, and fully appreciate that, if my boat sinks on most of the canals in my part of the world, I can actually walk ashore, whereas the same opportunity isnt available mid Atlantic.

Having said that, how many steel yachts actually corrode through in a way that endangers life, rather than in a way that is noticeable, and resolveable with a bit of new plate and some welding?

It is not about sinking - one of the advantages of steel boats is they are difficult to sink. It is the ongoing maintenance in a saltwater environment. Here I agree with our friend Brent that you can reduce this enormously by building boats like his where everything is welded up with the minimum of framing and all deck fittings welded on with no timber attached to the outside and minimum inside.

Unfortunately this is not how most steel yachts are built. They are mostly wooden boats in their shape and structure but using steel instead of timber - then adding timber on afterwards to make them look like timber boats. Result is a multitude of potential points where water or spray can get at the steel. Unless the resulting rust is dealt with quickly there is nothing to stop it spreading. A bit of neglect and the boat looks very sad, and is indeed sad as making good is a massive task. In many ways it is like wood - great if you start with a perfect boat and keep on top of maintenance.

The other thing against them in the market is that they are often quirky in that the original owners have gone for steel either because it is relatively easy to DIY or have a one off which is not available in production GRP. There are very few series production steel designs because there are few economies of scale. So you may be buying somebody else's dream boat, which is OK if your tastes are the same.

Having said all that if you are prepared to deal with the downsides such boats can be really good value. The boat linked to above has a lot going for it and if it were GRP (or even composite wood) it would command a much higher price. There seems to be a lot of good features and some excellent kit, so somebody may well get a bargain.

 

[dslittle]

Why do I have a strange feeling of foreboding as to where this thread is going

Which anchor???