dgadee
Well-Known Member
And a swim platform is useful on the Med, too.
Beginning to think we need a bigger boat
- Thread starter baart
- Start date
doug748
Well-Known Member
Point of order here, the OP has said he actually wants a boat suitable for sailing in N Europe.
baart
Well-Known Member
Yes, other than Azores at some poìnt, not planning to go south further than Brest. More interested in Scotland, Norway and Sweden
dgadee
Well-Known Member
143 messages ago.
Frogmogman
Well-Known Member
At the risk of being cast out into the snow for being political, that reminds me of how much I enjoyed James Cleverly’s joke on the radio the other morning; he described the Rwanda plan as being 95% watertight
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Then you need a Brent Swain designed Origami boat
But seriously, my brother cruises the West Coast of Scotland in a Bavaria 38 from around 2005, with full cockpit enclosure and good heating it's excellent ... here it is near Staffa caught by chance in the first 25 secs of this video.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
None. They are all good boats.I wonder if it is possible to discuss boats without it ultimately getting to Bavarias losing keels
Thinking about Bavarias though there are several models in the 36 to 38ft range. Which ones should one avoid?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Yes, it does get very confusing, but in reality post 1997 they are all variations on the same theme. The 36s were the most popular in terms of volume sales in the 1998 - 2005 period and changes were largely cosmetic, biggest being the 2002 change to the newer style interior and a slightly different hull and deck. Avoid ones with the 20hp engine. Replaced by a new design 37 for 2006, but probably outside your price range. The 37 like mine is less common and only ran for 2 years (2000/1) . The 2 cabin version is to my mind the most desirable aft cockpit boat from the period as the interior was a crib of a Hallberg Rassy cabin with 2 armchairs on the port side. That is what I would have liked but charter work determined the 3 cabin which has a scaled down interior from the 42. Avoid the shallow keel on this model - that is what I had to go through the French canals and it does limit performance except in light airs. The 38 is a different boat altogether as you will see from the one in the link. Longer, wider, deeper heavier and dates from 1996/7 as one of the first J&J designs and named "Holiday" reflecting its main market for chartering. Very popular with liveaboards because of the space and layout. Updated in 2000 to the newer style when the factory switched to more automated production. Similar dimensions but lighter and new styling. That is the model in the link, and some will have the bigger engine rather than the standard 30hp.I wonder if it is possible to discuss boats without it ultimately getting to Bavarias losing keels
Thinking about Bavarias though there are several models in the 36 to 38ft range. Which ones should one avoid?
You may also come across the 38 (and 40) Ocean centre cockpit models from 1997-2001 which is a very different boat from the aft cockpit 38 Holiday from which it was derived being wider deeper and heavier with a larger rig and lead keel. Aimed at the ocean cruising market and similar to the later Moodys, Westerlys and and HRs, Contests of the period. These are less common in the UK but are at the top end of your budget when they do appear. Very desirable but by their nature they have often led very busy cruising lives.
If you go back pre 1997 when J&J became the designers there were 3 models - 350, 370 and 390 all dating from 1991. These were heavier designs and much more "hand built" in smaller volumes and at premium prices. General style is similar to the later models. Quite a few were sold in the UK and now because of their age are generally cheaper than newer boats.
Hope this helps
steve350
Well-Known Member
Interesting to hear Martin Daldrup's comments on his rescue and on his requirements for his next yacht. He says his next yacht will be of an older design, similar to the designs of 30 or so years ago. It will not have a spade rudder as he considers them a vulnerability and has ruled them out.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a pretty typical post trauma analysis, try and change something to stop it ever happening again.
My brother has a HR36 owning friend who told my brother he would be fine with a spade rudder after breaking the skeg off his HR on rocks and months of repair work on the hull. Humans don't estimate probability very well, that's why we gamble and play the lottery. We take great pride in thinking we have mitigated against all eventualities and then sh!t happens to teach us otherwise.
If, as he speculated in the original article, there was also a hole in the starboard hull, then if he'd had an older design he could have sat in his liferaft and taken cold comfort in the finite probability that although his boat was still sinking, it may have sunk with a functioning rudder.
... like I said before, it's not like older designs are immune to sinking or rudder failure, or rigs coming down, or rolling, or getting swamped, or every other way a boat can meet it's demise.Most of the affordable "blue water boats" that my parents generation lusted after don't even meet the minimum LOA for entry in the ARC. My dad and his pals thought our Albin Vega was a "blue water boat", that all catamarans would break apart and joked about Moody yachts being floating caravans that would kill you if you took them offshore .... times have very definitely changed, but people cling to the opinions formed in their formative years. Just as well there's a younger generation willing to go out there and hammer round the worlds oceans on IMOCAs etc.
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Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I wonder if it is possible to discuss boats without it ultimately getting to Bavarias losing keels
Thinking about Bavarias though there are several models in the 36 to 38ft range. Which ones should one avoid?
Bavaria keels are the Godwin's Law of all sailing forums .... "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning Bavaria keels approaches 1."
... as mentioned by others, you don't need to avoid any of them.
billskip
Well-Known Member
No matter what you all say, happiness safety, comfort and confidence is in the individual.
Some people will ask why you feel unsafe walking the girder of a skyscraper construction, no good trying to convince me with statistics, I have a fear of heights.
It's a fact that older design/built boats are stronger, the proof is in the build calculations before computers started trimming unnecessary thickness and weight.
If you feel secure with your benjenbav ok, but make allowance for those that feel more secure in other boats.
Sailing is not always about racing,crossing oceans and getting from A to B as fast as possible.
There is a lot more to enjoying sailing/boating.
Some people will ask why you feel unsafe walking the girder of a skyscraper construction, no good trying to convince me with statistics, I have a fear of heights.
It's a fact that older design/built boats are stronger, the proof is in the build calculations before computers started trimming unnecessary thickness and weight.
If you feel secure with your benjenbav ok, but make allowance for those that feel more secure in other boats.
Sailing is not always about racing,crossing oceans and getting from A to B as fast as possible.
There is a lot more to enjoying sailing/boating.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Wow. No it is your OPINION. Which many with direct experience in the boatbuilding industry - then and now - disagree with.
For cruising the waters the OP intends to sail, there are thousands of all types and ages of boats safely sailing these waters.
billskip
Well-Known Member
There probably are thousands of types and ages, it doesn't change the fact that if ithe individual feels more comfortable, secure and happy in one type all your statistics are irrelevant.
No it's you opinion that old .."rule of thumb "...and cad dont differ....if it's my opinion as opposed to a fact, I know I'm not alone.
You seem to forget boats are designed to sell, secondly be produced at the minimum cost highest efficiency within the rules and regs required.
I remember back along a certain manufacturer boat was nicknamed "flexideck"
Many things in engineering were trimmed in design when computers calculated less material required for manufacturing.
I'm not suggesting today's boats are unsafe,or less safe, but the requirements of your average cruising people is happy and security in their minds, not statistics.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I think you are absolutely right about amateur sailors perception of strength, and therefore seaworthiness, being mostly based on weight and amount of material used ... that's how we built stuff for centuries to try and stop things from falling apart - feelings vs facts.
To add another anecdote to this thread, the Westerly Centaur was seen by all and sundry at the time as a solid, well built boat .... there was a member of the forum who was restoring one until he ran out of patience, so he cut it up into 30cm squares and dumped it in a skip .... here's what he discovered ...
A Gentlemans Yacht
Computer models of structures are accurate, computer software can perform calculations and simulations to precisely calculate loads and stress points way better than a designer with a pencil and paper. The computer models also enable calculation of exactly what thickness is needed where, and are used to cut out the patterns to build the boat as per the model - the boat is then assembled from pre-cut fiberglass patterns with specific instructions as to where each piece should go. As long as you have a designer who builds in the correct margins then what comes out is as optimised as we can produce. On top of the design, the manufacturing process is also controlled far better than before, so curing times, lay-up, mixing ratios, temperature, and pretty much everything about the build process is controlled to remove human error and ensure consistency ... unsurprisingly, products come out in higher numbers at lower cost. Production boats form the basis of every charter fleet in the world and there are a huge number of production boats in private ownership too doing everything from lake sailing to crossing oceans.
The same has happened in the car industry - car bodies have got lighter and much stronger and stiffer, while incorporating structures to absorb impacts, protecting the occupants far better than cars from 20 years ago - in the NCAP crash test almost everything now gets 5 stars on the crash test itself because of the structural analysis done by computer software.
The old Land Rover products, built on a separate ladder frame chassis, were seen as bomb proof, rugged, go anywhere vehicles, but get involved in an accident with a tree, a truck, or a building and that ladder frame could kill you. There were no crumple zones or structures to absorb impact and control deceleration - so instead of being decelerated at rates your internal organs could survive, you just went splat. The passenger compartment was also weak as the strength was in the chassis, so your chances of getting trapped were also higher.
Boat design has progressed since many out-dated opinions were formed, and it will take a few generations to filter into the human psyche that a products suitability for use derives from a combination of design, materials, adhering to current best practice, and consistency of manufacturing process .... as I have already mentioned, in the 70s/80s Moodys were derided by the owners of Westerlys/Vegas/Contessas/"insert any other period 70s cruiser here" as being floating caravans that were unseaworthy due to Angus Primroses demise, the loss of Demon of Hamble was just a precursor to the Bavaria Match keel incident.
The other argument we always hear is that boat manufacturers build down to a cost, they cut corners, skimp on materials, yada, yada, yada .... this is simply a cynical logical fallacy that "they are all crooks", and is usually used to smear for profit organisations and their products for no logical reason.
What is actually happening is very healthy competition. Competition by its very nature ensures each manufacturer is striving to make the safest, strongest, most attractive, most innovative product they can at an affordable price - which in every other field of product manufacture results in a net benefit to the end consumer. Why should boat building be any different? Sure there will be the occasional problem like the Bavaria Match or the unfortunate Oyster, but the net effect is better products.
doug748
Well-Known Member
" What is actually happening is very healthy competition. Competition by its very nature ensures each manufacturer is striving to make the safest, strongest, most attractive, most innovative product they can at an affordable price - which in every other field of product manufacture results in a net benefit to the end consumer."
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Sounds like a cut and paste from the Ladybird Book of Industry
.
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Sounds like a cut and paste from the Ladybird Book of Industry
.
14K478
Well-Known Member
I see it very differently. I've owned a succession of cheap boats which were cheap because either they were unfashionable or other possible buyers were scared of them. Result - a lifetime's happy messing about in boats.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
As an aside, I know of three people who sailed their boats to the Faroes and back this year - which is an exposed North Atlantic route almost guaranteeing a pasting of some form, one way or both. Certainly tougher than general UK / Baltic coastal cruising.
The types of boats they had were a Beneteau, a Bavaria and a Jeanneau - one about 20 years old, the other two less than 10 years.
They did indeed report some very tough weather - but no serious issues beyond some sea sickness.
All very experienced skippers, and experienced boat buyers. Boats from 34 to 42 feet long.
Supertramp
Well-Known Member
The OP asked a very relevant question about what boat types might meet his requirements. Its others who have introduced the idea that modern designs will turn upside down or fall apart. The success of taking any boat offshore or across oceans is at least as much about preparation and experience as design.
With a limited budget (as most of us have), it's about finding something that meets needs and adds up financially. I think that cruising means differences in hull and keel, deck layout, rig, engine, equipment and interior layout from racing. And decent quality construction and materials show through in the long term. Far more important to be clear of what features your ideal boat would have, such as swim platform, 2/3 cabins etc. And what repairs or upgrades you will need to add.
With a limited budget (as most of us have), it's about finding something that meets needs and adds up financially. I think that cruising means differences in hull and keel, deck layout, rig, engine, equipment and interior layout from racing. And decent quality construction and materials show through in the long term. Far more important to be clear of what features your ideal boat would have, such as swim platform, 2/3 cabins etc. And what repairs or upgrades you will need to add.
E39mad
Well-Known Member
If the Corsair is of interest then this Oceanranger as a more modern design appears good value. It popped up on my Facebook page today - I don't have any knowledge of the vendor or the yacht.
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=Westerly OCeanranger
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=Westerly OCeanranger
Other threads that may be of interest
