Are old boat prices dropping again?

[All The Gear No Idea]

I have been looking for a while - From the search on yachtworld that I use 32 in total on the market - but looking at age of advert, boats added with :
<7 days 3
<14 days 9
<30 days 11
<60 days 15

So a lot in April so far.

That said, market still seems to be split. There are some that have been on the market for years. Others go quickly - of the 9 on for less than 14 days, 4 are under offer. The one i have seen recently, i sent an enquiry the evening it went online, got a reply next day saying already under offer. So the good ones go fast.

So be ready to move and if anyone is selling Dufour Classic 38 3 cabin layout in good condition can i have first refusal !!!!!!

Good boats always sell fast if the price isn’t ridiculous. The reality is that many owners buy boats and do very little maintenance. Over time, the problems mount up and before you know it, what could have been preserved with regular maintenance needs replacing. The time, money and aggravation doing boat jobs is off putting and this compounds the situation. When I was looking for boats, I saw a lot of overpriced, unloved vessels, their owners delusional about asking prices! So trying to analyse and identify general trends in boat sales and what represents value for money is nigh on impossible!

You just have to hope you find a well loved, well maintained example and that there’s not too many other people bidding against you.

 

[Stemar]

You just have to hope you find a well loved, well maintained example and that there’s not too many other people bidding against you.

Or accept that you're buying work and expense, as long as the price is appropriate. If you have the time and skills, it's a good way to get to know your boat.

Unfortunately too many sellers don't realise how tired what was once their pride and joy has become and expect top price. Is that what happened to Jac's 15 boats on the market for more than 60 days, I wonder?

 

[All The Gear No Idea]

Or accept that you're buying work and expense, as long as the price is appropriate. If you have the time and skills, it's a good way to get to know your boat.

Unfortunately too many sellers don't realise how tired what was once their pride and joy has become and expect top price. Is that what happened to Jac's 15 boats on the market for more than 60 days, I wonder?

That’s another way of looking at it, but depends on your objectives. Do you want to spend a season or two working on a project, or do you just want to go sailing? Even a well maintained boat will present issues and opportunities for you to become familiar with it, but I admit, the learning curve will be shallower.
And you raise the point I made earlier, that sellers don’t realise the extent of dilapidation. It might also be that they struggle with all matters practical and have to pay someone to fix things. Of course, only the showstopper problems get fixed.
I think all those coming into boat ownership need to do their homework if they aren’t confident enough, or capable of fixing things themselves. I personally could never afford to keep a boat without getting my hands dirty, but I enjoy this aspect of boat ownership.
Aside from the financial hit taken for repairs and maintenance, there are the delays and disruption caused by people not being readily available and sometimes, further issues caused by so called professionals.

 

[Koeketiene]

Unfortunately too many sellers don't realise how tired what was once their pride and joy has become and expect top price.

When I was in the market two years ago, I went to look at nicely presented boat which was at the top end of my budget.
The advert stated the boat had benefited from a full refit and that invoices were available for inspection.

When I went to view the boat it transpired that the full refit had taken place 12-13 years ago and that all the pictures in the advert dated from that era.
What I viewed was a somewhat neglected and rather tired looking old boat.
I did not buy.

When it comes to selling, some owners seem to think along the lines of: so many years ago I paid X for the boat and over the years I have spent Y on her, so now she's worth X+Y.
It does not work that way.
A boat is essentially a depreciating asset. By keeping her in shape most of the time you're just slowing the rate of depreciation.

 

[hurley]

Hi Ive been following the market in under 20k yachts since last spring and for the first time in this period starting to see more boats being advertised in the last few weeks. Some at realistic prices tend to go quite quickly. Have seen some gradual, and some quite drastic reductions in the last few weeks. I have noticed some very tired boats with owners attempting to get the same price as obviously well loved, updated well maintained and re-engined boats.

Its also becoming quite clear that the cost of living crisis is starting to be "noticed/felt" by people now, and lots of really cheap European Holidays in the sun , (a week to Corfu or majorca for example for 2 for the price of a month or twos Marina fees).
How many "new / lockdown boat owners" partners of a boat enthusiast will be comparing holiday notes with friends, of a week in the sun, relaxing sun loungers, sundowners and Full board, versus a cramped soggy week in rainy blighty.

Also how hard is it to get tradesman currently especially tough for people that don't have the skills or experience to undertake DIY work not to mention the costs.

But, maybe I have confirmation bias because I really want boat after 5 years "boatless" !

 

[jac]

Hi Ive been following the market in under 20k yachts since last spring and for the first time in this period starting to see more boats being advertised in the last few weeks. Some at realistic prices tend to go quite quickly. Have seen some gradual, and some quite drastic reductions in the last few weeks. I have noticed some very tired boats with owners attempting to get the same price as obviously well loved, updated well maintained and re-engined boats.

Its also becoming quite clear that the cost of living crisis is starting to be "noticed/felt" by people now, and lots of really cheap European Holidays in the sun , (a week to Corfu or majorca for example for 2 for the price of a month or twos Marina fees).
How many "new / lockdown boat owners" partners of a boat enthusiast will be comparing holiday notes with friends, of a week in the sun, relaxing sun loungers, sundowners and Full board, versus a cramped soggy week in rainy blighty.

Also how hard is it to get tradesman currently especially tough for people that don't have the skills or experience to undertake DIY work not to mention the costs.

But, maybe I have confirmation bias because I really want boat after 5 years "boatless" !

I'm in exactly the same position - 5 years boatless - started looking just as Covid hit and then the market went barmy. I'm going to charter this summer and anything else will be a bonus

I fear it may be confirmation bias. I'm looking in a slightly different market segment but the period from Easter to the end of May always seems to be peak selling season - people have had the chance to get boats looking nice and if you put an offer in now, even with delays for survey etc you should be able to sail away early July and enjoy 1/2 of the season. So loads of boats coming onto the market recently but little incentive to place new boats over the next 3-4 months. After all if you have one now, you may as well keep it over the summer and use it and then sell before you have to worry about winter storage / jobs.

 

[[2574]]

The caravan market has gone soft apparently. Writing on the wall?

 

[Biggles Wader]

The caravan market has gone soft apparently. Writing on the wall?

Maybe the dags nicked the wheels.

 

[jac]

The caravan market has gone soft apparently. Writing on the wall?

I suspect that the market for many non essentials will face a tough year as the "cost of living crisis" bites. I suspect though that might just lead to a fall in demand, rather than an increase in supply!

 

[Tranona]

I suspect that the market for many non essentials will face a tough year as the "cost of living crisis" bites. I suspect though that might just lead to a fall in demand, rather than an increase in supply!

Yes there is a view that in uncertain times people will sit it out at least in the short term. So fewer will look to buy, but the number of potential sellers may not increase.

 

[hurley]

The caravan market has gone soft apparently. Writing on the wall?

One has to feel really so sorry for all the poor" Lockdown Puppies/dogs " now being abandoned. Lockdown certainly led to some very bizarre short term gratification driven consumer behavior.

 

[All The Gear No Idea]

It’s inevitable that some of those who suddenly rushed out and bought a boat during the pandemic will get cold feet and decide boating is not for them.

I have to politely refute the assertions about it always being cold and wet here in Blighty. My phone is full of photos of amazing sunsets! It’s surprising how often the weather comes good, but being on the coast helps a lot.

Across the board, demand for boats has been high. Indeed many manufacturer’s order books are currently still full and I regularly hear stories of people having to wait two years to get the boat they ordered! One new model of 46ft yacht sold 80 units before the product even properly launched. At circa £400k for a even a standard spec boat, that’s remarkable!

My partner and I went through the process of buying a new boat and that took almost a year (we’ve had our boat for 9 months now). After Covid delays were factored in, we’d lost 3/4 of a season without a boat. I have a friend who ordered a new boat soon after us and he STILL hasn’t had his handover. To be fair, he ordered a lot of after market extras and has experienced supply chain issues.

We never set out to buy a new boat, but were after something up to 5 years old. There was literally nothing in the UK that met our criteria that hadn’t already been sold.

I’m glad we changed when we did because I got a record price for my old boat and since last year and we believe the price of the new boat has gone up by around 20%!

For this season, I predict that secondhand prices will hold. Most boaters tend to be earning salaries above those where the cost of living crisis could have a profound impact, but if inflation doesn’t come under control, the escalating cost of boat ownership might mean an increasing supply of second hand boats coming on the market. This won’t happen till next year, when bertholders see how much more their annual fees are going up by .

At sub £20k, you will find a lot of badly maintained, tired old boats. Without great practical skills and know how, it’s not economic to bring these up to standard. It can be done if thats, but parts are expensive and often in short supply. It also takes an inordinate amount of time to achieve your aims. Do you want a project, or do you want to go sailing? IMHO, a well loved, well maintained boat that’s ready to sail

It’s rare that a good example comes along at low prices, so you have to hope you get lucky. This has always been the case, regardless of the economic climate.

With inflation running close to 10%, I reckon this might also help secondhand boat prices to remain stable.

If only we had a crystal ball, but it all depends on the economy. If we go into a protracted recession, the end of 2023 will probably be the point where the worm begins to turn.

Hi Ive been following the market in under 20k yachts since last spring and for the first time in this period starting to see more boats being advertised in the last few weeks. Some at realistic prices tend to go quite quickly. Have seen some gradual, and some quite drastic reductions in the last few weeks. I have noticed some very tired boats with owners attempting to get the same price as obviously well loved, updated well maintained and re-engined boats.

Its also becoming quite clear that the cost of living crisis is starting to be "noticed/felt" by people now, and lots of really cheap European Holidays in the sun , (a week to Corfu or majorca for example for 2 for the price of a month or twos Marina fees).
How many "new / lockdown boat owners" partners of a boat enthusiast will be comparing holiday notes with friends, of a week in the sun, relaxing sun loungers, sundowners and Full board, versus a cramped soggy week in rainy blighty.

Also how hard is it to get tradesman currently especially tough for people that don't have the skills or experience to undertake DIY work not to mention the costs.

But, maybe I have confirmation bias because I really want boat after 5 years "boatless" !

 

[KeelsonGraham]

On a purely personal level, I'm pleased. I hope the market changes to a buyers one. There are a lot of AWBs out there now. I shall no doubt offend someone, but I thought the gadarene rush to buy a boat: any boat, it seemed, a few months ago was potty. Now some of these people, having rushed into it, will be "dreeing their ain wierd" as they discovere they are bored with their boat, but then can't sell it, whilst still having to pay c £600 pcm for it in a Hamble marina over the winter. I have no sympathy for them. It might turn out to be negative equity with a capital N.

Well, I’m one of those who bought a boat ‘a few months ago‘ and I’m absolutely delighted with it. Not all of us have the luxury of waiting x years until the bottom of the market. I may have paid a premium for buying in the Covid surge but I’m on the water now rather than just dreaming about it.

Yes, your condescending tone does offend.

 

[xyachtdave]

Well, I’m one of those who bought a boat ‘a few months ago‘ and I’m absolutely delighted with it. Not all of us have the luxury of waiting x years until the bottom of the market. I may have paid a premium for buying in the Covid surge but I’m on the water now rather than just dreaming about it.

Yes, your condescending tone does offend.

Well if you looked at boat ownership purely from a financial aspect you wouldn't buy one at all.

Glad you're happy with yours!

But PP does have a point regarding some of these impulse purchases, someone with a few quid behind them, zero experience and a copy of Yachting World under their arm could be in for a reality check.

Partner/kids don't like it
The good weather doesn't fall in line with their social calendar
Maintenance, breakages, marina fees, scrubbing etc etc
Sailing to France and back in a weekend for a spot of lunch is quite exhausting/unrealistic.

A lot of people expect some sun during their annual two weeks off, not layering up and rooting around for a wooly hat....

 

[Stemar]

A lot of people expect some sun during their annual two weeks off, not layering up and rooting around for a wooly hat....

Which is why I'm glad to be retired - I can pick my weather.

The "We can't go to Phuket this year, so we'll buy a boat" brigade will soon get fed up and the boats will go on the market, less a few who will get infected with that pernicious sailing virus, who will join the numbers of we incurably infected.

 

[Concerto]

There is one factor that most of you miss relating to boat prices, the number of people who pay to learn to sail. Some will certainly be wanting a qualification so they can charter a boat in warmer climates, but most just want to go sailing and own a boat. How do I know this? In Chatham Marina opposite my berth are 3 of the yachts from Elite Sailing and they have a larger one on another pontoon plus a power boat. There are a number of other individuals that do sail training based here as well. Frequently I chat with those just finishing their course and find their reactions are always the same, they want to do more sailing. By comparison, the Solent has plenty of training schools, as do many other marinas in the UK, all stoking the demand to participate in our sport. This is not a Covid thing, but has been happening for decades.

My opinion is that boat prices may soften slightly in the current period, but not by much. Good quality boats will always achieve an above average price and sell quickly. The constraint on our market of the almost zero transfer of secondhand boats with the continent without paying VAT again (what a disgrace that double charging is deemed necessary by the governments) means the boating stock can only be increased by launching new boats. However, how many are actually being sold into the UK market is relatively small compared to the number of people wanting to participate in our sport. This does sound strange when so few boats seem to be used regularly and are left to slowly decay with lack of maintenance.

 

[IanCC]

I am not sure we will go back to the continual slow decline. What there was was deflation. There was no point buying because they were always going to be cheaper tomorrow. I saw some mind blowing bargains. Bargains compared to what else you could get for the money. For example i let an immaculate, super well equipped and maintained Rival 36 at £43k slip through my fingers and it was on the market for a couple of years. Even at that time you didn't get an awful lot of vw camper for that price.

So it seems to me that there were a fair few boat buyers out there watching prices drop who suddenly realised they weren't dropping any more.

Therefore the expectation that prices are bound to fall, which leads to deflation, will have reduced somewhat.

 

[jac]

There is one factor that most of you miss relating to boat prices, the number of people who pay to learn to sail. Some will certainly be wanting a qualification so they can charter a boat in warmer climates, but most just want to go sailing and own a boat. How do I know this? In Chatham Marina opposite my berth are 3 of the yachts from Elite Sailing and they have a larger one on another pontoon plus a power boat. There are a number of other individuals that do sail training based here as well. Frequently I chat with those just finishing their course and find their reactions are always the same, they want to do more sailing. By comparison, the Solent has plenty of training schools, as do many other marinas in the UK, all stoking the demand to participate in our sport. This is not a Covid thing, but has been happening for decades.

My opinion is that boat prices may soften slightly in the current period, but not by much. Good quality boats will always achieve an above average price and sell quickly. The constraint on our market of the almost zero transfer of secondhand boats with the continent without paying VAT again (what a disgrace that double charging is deemed necessary by the governments) means the boating stock can only be increased by launching new boats. However, how many are actually being sold into the UK market is relatively small compared to the number of people wanting to participate in our sport. This does sound strange when so few boats seem to be used regularly and are left to slowly decay with lack of maintenance.

I think the flaw with that argument is that as you say, schools have been pumping out new graduates for decades without it ever getting to this stage. Something has changed.

Whilst i think Covid may have had some impact in terms of encouraging people to get a UK based boat as nothing else available for a holiday, I suspect that there are a number of other factors - houses, cars etc are all also in short supply, the shift to home working has freed up time and commuting cash. Jobs are now easy to come by with more vacancies than unemployed and lots of places struggling to recruit. Yachts ae just part of an overall pattern

Inflation will soon eat into disposable income but i suspect that until new boat sales and deliveries accelerate, which might push more trade in / trade up type boats onto the market, then i see relatively little change unless a lot do suddenly get fed up with the realities!

 

[dgadee]

There is one factor that most of you miss relating to boat prices, the number of people who pay to learn to sail. Some will certainly be wanting a qualification so they can charter a boat in warmer climates, but most just want to go sailing and own a boat. How do I know this? In Chatham Marina opposite my berth are 3 of the yachts from Elite Sailing and they have a larger one on another pontoon plus a power boat. There are a number of other individuals that do sail training based here as well. Frequently I chat with those just finishing their course and find their reactions are always the same, they want to do more sailing. By comparison, the Solent has plenty of training schools, as do many other marinas in the UK, all stoking the demand to participate in our sport. This is not a Covid thing, but has been happening for decades.

My opinion is that boat prices may soften slightly in the current period, but not by much. Good quality boats will always achieve an above average price and sell quickly. The constraint on our market of the almost zero transfer of secondhand boats with the continent without paying VAT again (what a disgrace that double charging is deemed necessary by the governments) means the boating stock can only be increased by launching new boats. However, how many are actually being sold into the UK market is relatively small compared to the number of people wanting to participate in our sport. This does sound strange when so few boats seem to be used regularly and are left to slowly decay with lack of maintenance.

All research has shown that age of boat ownership in the UK and EU has risen consistently. In the last 10 years the average age of owners increased by 10 years. But I hope you are right. I first owned (a GK24) when I was 27. Not too many 27 year old owners around now.

 

[fifer]

All research has shown that age of boat ownership in the UK and EU has risen consistently. In the last 10 years the average age of owners increased by 10 years. But I hope you are right. I first owned (a GK24) when I was 27. Not too many 27 year old owners around now.

The age of ownership of anything significant is increasing - cars, houses, you name it. Its simply because the cost of everything keeps increasing whilst wages stay the same. That plus more and more companies realise they can make more money through subscription than purchases - or renting as its sometimes known. At lot of people under 35 don't have that much discretionary cash, and where they do its often being saved/invested for the future.