Anybody here know much about travel hoists?

[Refueler]

$10K to right a boat ....... I'm in wrong business !

 

[Sea Change]

$10K to right a boat ....... I'm in wrong business !

$16k if you need the mast lifted too.

 

[Wansworth]

So even after hurricane Ivan the whole boat store thing didn’t get a shake up?

 

[Sea Change]

The issue the salvage company faces is that no one is under any obligation to use them, even if they have mobilised to the island.

I think the legal discussion will centre around the yard refusing to do any of the work or to allow anybody others than their preferred contractor to operate there.

We could be looking at a stalemate where the boat owners (and their insurers) refuse to engage with the salvage company, and the boatyard refuses to allow any alternative arrangements.

Somebody will have to back down. A very large number of boat owners are simply unable to pay, so that option is off the table.

The salvage co might go back to BVI with their tail between their legs, hugely out of pocket. And perhaps it would serve them right for jumping the gun. We didn't ask for their services.

 

[Refueler]

If you and the other owners get together and have sensible - reasonable discussion which includes the Yard - (it is their territory).

The Salvage Co. may actually end up with the job to at least pay their being onsite ... but at more favourable rates ...

What you must avoid is Yard digging in and then adding charges on for boats 'abandoned' in their territory. Who knows what skullduggery they can come up with if no discussions.

 

[Refueler]

"I think the legal discussion will centre around the yard refusing to do any of the work or to allow anybody others than their preferred contractor to operate there."

How many yards do you know of that allow outside contractors in without Permission first from the Yard itself ? Its standard practice for yards to restrict outside co's coming in ... yard usually gets a % of fees or are protecting the on site / contracted co's who pay them.

I can get cranes into my local yard - but first I have to ask Yard Manager ... who would prefer to use his hoist at 80 euro a lift.

 

[Sea Change]

"I think the legal discussion will centre around the yard refusing to do any of the work or to allow anybody others than their preferred contractor to operate there."

How many yards do you know of that allow outside contractors in without Permission first from the Yard itself ? Its standard practice for yards to restrict outside co's coming in ... yard usually gets a % of fees or are protecting the on site / contracted co's who pay them.

I can get cranes into my local yard - but first I have to ask Yard Manager ... who would prefer to use his hoist at 80 euro a lift.

Their policy is to only allow contractors of whom they approve. It's their yard, and their right to do that.

In my own particular case, I do not believe an outside contractor is actually needed, and I would be happy to pay the usual yard rate to lift the boat. That doesn't help the other boat owners, of course.

Some of us have submitted complaints to the Grenadian government consumers' protection department (I haven't done this myself). Surely the government of Grenada would rather see a local company getting this work.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

They do if they are offering a service and an associated cost. If they proposed to lift my boat, I would want to know how they are going to undertake the job and what equipment they were proposing to use. Otherwise, why would you hand over $10k?

Unless there is a legal requirement for such documents, they don’t have to provide anything. You may want them to, but they may feel obliged not to show you, or even develop any for specific cases. Also, if they do provide them, they may not follow them, the customer may not understand them. How far down the assurance road do you want to go: review of lifting certification, cross check calibration certificates of load testing equipment, validate material certificates against lifting equipment, check maintenance and inspection of lifting and hoisting equipment, check training certificates and competency verification et cetera.

The irony of the whole situation is that the boat owners accepted risk, trusted a yard to manage risk for them, had that risk realised and now don’t want the services of a company to help recover their losses as they can’t afford it. Their insurance companies understood the threat and did not accept the risk.

On another thread you stated that all these yards use concrete anchored tie downs, but the videos of this yard suggest the tie downs ripped out of compacted hard pack, not concrete.

It is a desperate situation they find themselves in. Shysters may be trying to price gouge, or the salvage company is trying to protect itself against losses, take your pick. At the end of the day, your advise not to be there during the season, reflects the top hierarchy of risk control, eliminate the hazard. The people who stayed chose the second (maybe 3rd as substituting could be second) level, engineered solutions, and that failed. The lowest control is procedures, which is why I think method statements and such like are very weak.

It is so sad.

 

[Sea Change]

I've now, somewhat after the fact, seen the yard's Hurricane Plan, and it makes interesting reading.
The tie down points are described as helical piles, with 3000lb concrete blocks used elsewhere.
Various provisions of the plan were news to me- e.g. we are apparently not allowed to drop our anchor and chain on to a pallet, despite almost every boat doing this.

 

[Sea Change]

the salvage company is trying to protect itself against losses,

If they wanted to do that, they would have flown a couple of surveyors down first, instead of committing a whole fleet or men and machines.

 

[geem]

......

Unless there is a legal requirement for such documents, they don’t have to provide anything. You may want them to, but they may feel obliged not to show you, or even develop any for specific cases. Also, if they do provide them, they may not follow them, the customer may not understand them. How far down the assurance road do you want to go: review of lifting certification, cross check calibration certificates of load testing equipment, validate material certificates against lifting equipment, check maintenance and inspection of lifting and hoisting equipment, check training certificates and competency verification et cetera.

The irony of the whole situation is that the boat owners accepted risk, trusted a yard to manage risk for them, had that risk realised and now don’t want the services of a company to help recover their losses as they can’t afford it. Their insurance companies understood the threat and did not accept the risk.

On another thread you stated that all these yards use concrete anchored tie downs, but the videos of this yard suggest the tie downs ripped out of compacted hard pack, not concrete.

It is a desperate situation they find themselves in. Shysters may be trying to price gouge, or the salvage company is trying to protect itself against losses, take your pick. At the end of the day, your advise not to be there during the season, reflects the top hierarchy of risk control, eliminate the hazard. The people who stayed chose the second (maybe 3rd as substituting could be second) level, engineered solutions, and that failed. The lowest control is procedures, which is why I think method statements and such like are very weak.

It is so sad.

You are making this far too complicated. I stated what I would expect as a reasonable level of information from the salvage company before I would allow them to lift my boat for a sum of money. If you don't get this basic level of info, why would you ever part with any money? It not a normal travel hoist lift that is done everyday. Its a specialist lift. A method statement is normal practise. Some of the salvage companies operating in the Caribbean are Dutch companies well versed with providing such levels of basic info.

 

[Sea Change]

The BVI based company is owned by an English guy, he will have heard of lift plans and risk assessments.

 

[Sea Change]

Another thought, wouldn't insurance companies be within their rights to seek a second quote?

 

[Refueler]

Another thought, wouldn't insurance companies be within their rights to seek a second quote?

But you say most owners have no insurance.

Does Yard have Insurance ?

 

[Sea Change]

But you say most owners have no insurance.

Some do, some don't. Many of those who do have insurance are very worried that they're not adequately covered.

Does Yard have Insurance ?

In the T&C's there is a $100k liability limit, which does sound like the sort of thing that would arise from insurance. But no explicit mention of insurance.

 

[Sandy]

I don't see it like that. It's easy for these yards to get a bad reputation. If everybody in these yards is ripped off by the process the yard put in place, word will get around, it could be that nobody wants to use them for several years until memories fade. Not a great business model.
If the salvage company expect to get paid for their work, they need to provide method statements and risk assessments with an estimate of the time and equipment required to do the lift. A blanket cost suggests that some people with a relatively easy lift will subsidise those with more complex requirements. That is not an acceptable way of working.

One of the wonderful things about a forum is we can all add our 2 cents.

Ways of working and the business environment is different all over the planet. I for one would be looking at this sort of project in a very different way to a 'business as normal' day, i.e. lift boat A from here to there over ground that is clear of anything that could damage my plant or staff.

Perhaps the yard owners have a deal with the people doing the lift, $$$$ to clear up / the number of boats in X number of days. Who knows. What we do know is @Sea Change is pi$$ed off as he has a boat that is on its side and needs to splash out some cash sorting that rather than spending it on rum.

It will be interesting to see if the yard allows him to move his own boat. I'm quite sure it would not be allowed in the UK, see paragraph 2.

 

[Refueler]

Some do, some don't. Many of those who do have insurance are very worried that they're not adequately covered.



In the T&C's there is a $100k liability limit, which does sound like the sort of thing that would arise from insurance. But no explicit mention of insurance.

Understood ..

As to that 100K liability - that implies some sort of cover - but you need to see the Terms of it. No doubt it would be a hotly contested matter ... probably worthless at end of day.

 

[Sea Change]

What we do know is @Sea Change is pi$$ed off as he has a boat that is on its side and needs to splash out some cash sorting that rather than spending it on rum.

What a strange comment. Do you actually think I am choosing to spend what little money I have on rum? I'll chalk this up as an unfortunate turn of phrase rather than the unpleasant personal attack that it reads like.

It will be interesting to see if the yard allows him to move his own boat. I'm quite sure it would not be allowed in the UK, see paragraph 2.

I'm planning on asking the yard to move my boat, using their normal equipment, at their normal rates.

 

[penberth3]

What a strange comment. Do you actually think I am choosing to spend what little money I have on rum? I'll chalk this up as an unfortunate turn of phrase rather than the unpleasant personal attack that it reads like....

This is an internet forum. I read it as a light-hearted comment that's obviously gone straight over your head. Not unfortunate, not unpleasant.

 

[Blue Seas]

The OP was "Anybody here know much about travel hoists?" and the two people who do (Ribdriver in post 28 as a hoist rep, and myself as a hoist owner) basically agree that it is a simple job for a hoist to do and I will further add that in addition to our hoist we had three yard cranes on site two of which would easily lift the OP's boat - out of the three machines I would choose the hoist over the cranes every day of the week assuming adequate access - even if it was necessary to use a crane initially because of poor access, I would get the hoist in to take over at the earliest possible stage of the lift. It's a 'no-brainer' to me. Gut feeling is that me plus a couple of (knowledgable) yard lads would reasonably expect to lift upright and block off say four boats per day on average without causing further damage.

On the second point, that of what is and is not allowed on the premises owned by the yard - for me that is a much more contentious and difficult issue to resolve and probably what will determine the eventual outcome.
With my boatyard/shipyard owner/operator hat on I would fully support the site owners in that one has to retain control consistent with both ownership rights as well as responsibility for the site. If the yard do not want to use their own hoist or staff then nobody can force them to do so. Likewise they can retain control over site access to outside contractors.
But, the boat owners have chosen the site based partly on 'Services available' as advertised and that needs to be considered - and if the yard owners say (quite understandably) that they do not want to take the risk with their own kit, then I would say that they then would have an implied duty look after their customers and at least consult with them before then seeking out some reasonable and best quotes on the customers' behalf. To unilaterally sign up to one (extortionate) contractor seems a bit like unfair practice to my mind. To those who say 'pay whatever they are asking without questioning' I would respond by asking if they should pay if up even if the salvage company were asking a £1M per boat for a couple of hours work? Will this work in the Caribbean? I wouldn't like to say.

Ultimately, I think it will be a stand-off until hopefully some common sense and reasonableness breaks out between the owners and the yard. Personally I would go with Geem's suggestion to hold out for the rest of the hurricane season anyway - perhaps by then any owners who do have insurance cover will have managed to get the assessors to do some price negotiation. I hope it resolves itself in the end.