Anybody here know much about travel hoists?

[Sea Change]

This is an internet forum. I read it as a light-hearted comment that's obviously gone straight over your head. Not unfortunate, not unpleasant.

Maybe I'm being over sensitive. This whole thing has been pretty draining, so I don't necessarily see the funny side.

 

[Sea Change]

The OP was "Anybody here know much about travel hoists?" and the two people who do (Ribdriver in post 28 as a hoist rep, and myself as a hoist owner) basically agree that it is a simple job for a hoist to do and I will further add that in addition to our hoist we had three yard cranes on site two of which would easily lift the OP's boat - out of the three machines I would choose the hoist over the cranes every day of the week assuming adequate access - even if it was necessary to use a crane initially because of poor access, I would get the hoist in to take over at the earliest possible stage of the lift. It's a 'no-brainer' to me. Gut feeling is that me plus a couple of (knowledgable) yard lads would reasonably expect to lift upright and block off say four boats per day on average without causing further damage.

On the second point, that of what is and is not allowed on the premises owned by the yard - for me that is a much more contentious and difficult issue to resolve and probably what will determine the eventual outcome.
With my boatyard/shipyard owner/operator hat on I would fully support the site owners in that one has to retain control consistent with both ownership rights as well as responsibility for the site. If the yard do want to use their own hoist or staff then nobody can force them to do so. Likewise they can retain control over site access to outside contractors.
But, the boat owners have chosen the site based partly on 'Services available' as advertised and that needs to be considered - and if the yard owners say (quite understandably) that they do not want to take the risk with their own kit, then I would say that they then would have an implied duty look after their customers and at least consult with them before then seeking out some reasonable and best quotes on the customers' behalf. To unilaterally sign up to one (extortionate) contractor seems a bit like unfair practice to my mind. To those who say 'pay whatever they are asking without questioning' I would respond by asking if they should pay if up even if the salvage company were asking a £1M per boat for a couple of hours work?

Ultimately, I think I will be a stand-off until some hopefully some common sense and reasonableness breaks out between the owners and the yard. Personally I would go with Geem's suggestion to hold out for the rest of the hurricane season anyway - Perhaps by then any owners who do have insurance cover will have managed to get the assessors to do some price negotiation. I hope it resolves itself in the end.

Excellent and helpful summary, thank you.

 

[Aja]

One of the wonderful things about a forum is we can all add our 2 cents.

What we do know is @Sea Change is pi$$ed off as he has a boat that is on its side and needs to splash out some cash sorting that rather than spending it on rum.

Thats the most unhelpful and ungracious post I've seen on here for some time.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

......

You are making this far too complicated. I stated what I would expect as a reasonable level of information from the salvage company before I would allow them to lift my boat for a sum of money. If you don't get this basic level of info, why would you ever part with any money? It not a normal travel hoist lift that is done everyday. Its a specialist lift. A method statement is normal practise. Some of the salvage companies operating in the Caribbean are Dutch companies well versed with providing such levels of basic info.

It is not complicated at all. I only offer examples of how your defined document requests can give a false sense of security, to demonstrate how far do folks want to go down this road. It all comes at a cost. Is the claim that this salvage company is not offering a "method statement", perhaps they are? I don't ask my boat yard to show me their risk assessment and method statement when they lift my boat, it just turns up in the cradle. Likely all of the boat owners in this yard did the same, paid to have their boats lifted and did not ask for statements et cetera. I ask my lifting vendor, when they are required to lift a 100 ton production tree from a vessel for their assured lifting plan and they provide all the documents with full traceability which gets reviewed before lift. These are two ends of the spectrum.

The Dutch company I can almost guarantee will have different management systems depending on the area of operation and the scope of work, or apply the same management system differently in to the same scope of work but in different regions.

 

[B27]

How many of the boats have significant structural damage?
How many are actually not worth repairing, given they are on a post-hurricane island?

Every yard in the Caribbean islands is hopelessly exposed to hurricanes. When you get a cat 4 hurricane, it destroys everything in its path. The only reliable solution for a cruiser there in hurricane season is to not have you or your boat there. I have seen the damage for myself after hurricane Ivan. Ivan was a cat 3 when it went over Grenada. The destruction was massive. I tell every cruiser I meet who is thinking of leaving a boat in one of the yards, not to do it. Some listen and some don't.
The yards in Grenada that were hit in 2004 were no better. Spice Island put themselves into administration following the hurricane. The insurance assessors arrived after the hurricane. They assessed the damage to the boats on their sides before the yard had done anything to recover fallen over boats. Once the yard started to lift boats, they did further damage. The insurance companies refused to cover for the additional damage, telling owners to seek damages from the yard. The yard were not insured for the damage they did. It was a total fiasco.

For sure.
But if you were making a proper effort to survive a cat 1 or 2 hurricane, you'd be wanting masts down, full welded cradles, serious ground anchors etc etc. That picture shows props which I wouldn't trust on a bad day in the UK.

It's perhaps a mindset thing.
Once you believe 'things don't survive hurricanes', you expect everything to get smashed up, so you just plan to bulldoze and rebuild.
It's like people in earthquake zones, you either spend a lot of cash to have something insurable, or have buildings which are cheap to replace.

The other thing is, boatyards the world over just want your money.
And they don't want a bunch of broken boats lying around with a risk of non-payment, unless they are a gravy train.

The OP's boat may be fine. Or it might have visible or invisible damage meaning the keel might fall off in mid Atlantic.
Like cars, it doesn't take much to write off a boat these days.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

.... Or it might have visible ... damage ...

The Op has already stated that the boat has large crack in its side and has posted pictures of it. He knows the travel hoist can be set up to lift his boat, it is a large travel hoist.

The thread has interestingly diverted to discuss other matters. How the OP gets his situation resolved, I hope he lets the forum know at some future point.

 

[Sandy]

What a strange comment. Do you actually think I am choosing to spend what little money I have on rum? I'll chalk this up as an unfortunate turn of phrase rather than the unpleasant personal attack that it reads like.

It was meant as a light hearted comment. I would never post an unpleasant personal attack on a poster.

 

[B27]

The OP was "Anybody here know much about travel hoists?" and the two people who do (Ribdriver in post 28 as a hoist rep, and myself as a hoist owner) basically agree that it is a simple job for a hoist to do and I will further add that in addition to our hoist we had three yard cranes on site two of which would easily lift the OP's boat - out of the three machines I would choose the hoist over the cranes every day of the week assuming adequate access - even if it was necessary to use a crane initially because of poor access, I would get the hoist in to take over at the earliest possible stage of the lift. It's a 'no-brainer' to me. Gut feeling is that me plus a couple of (knowledgable) yard lads would reasonably expect to lift upright and block off say four boats per day on average without causing further damage.

On the second point, that of what is and is not allowed on the premises owned by the yard - for me that is a much more contentious and difficult issue to resolve and probably what will determine the eventual outcome.
With my boatyard/shipyard owner/operator hat on I would fully support the site owners in that one has to retain control consistent with both ownership rights as well as responsibility for the site. If the yard do want to use their own hoist or staff then nobody can force them to do so. Likewise they can retain control over site access to outside contractors.
But, the boat owners have chosen the site based partly on 'Services available' as advertised and that needs to be considered - and if the yard owners say (quite understandably) that they do not want to take the risk with their own kit, then I would say that they then would have an implied duty look after their customers and at least consult with them before then seeking out some reasonable and best quotes on the customers' behalf. To unilaterally sign up to one (extortionate) contractor seems a bit like unfair practice to my mind. To those who say 'pay whatever they are asking without questioning' I would respond by asking if they should pay if up even if the salvage company were asking a £1M per boat for a couple of hours work? Will this work in the Caribbean? I wouldn't like to say unfortunately.

Ultimately, I think it will be a stand-off until hopefully some common sense and reasonableness breaks out between the owners and the yard. Personally I would go with Geem's suggestion to hold out for the rest of the hurricane season anyway - perhaps by then any owners who do have insurance cover will have managed to get the assessors to do some price negotiation. I hope it resolves itself in the end.

That's fair comment, but my mate had his boat lifted in the W Indies, it turned into a two week fiasco because they got a puncture in the travel hoist's tyre. That ground where all the tie-downs have been ripped out isn't exactly Moody's of Burseldon is it?

I've had a boat lifted in the UK and the yard were running around like idiots when they found their props were all too short.
Boatyards the world over....

 

[B27]

The Op has already stated that the boat has large crack in its side and has posted pictures of it. He knows the travel hoist can be set up to lift his boat, it is a large travel hoist.

The thread has interestingly diverted to discuss other matters. How the OP gets his situation resolved, I hope he lets the forum know at some future point.

I didn't see that.
I did assume that lots of the boats pictured are likely to be write-offs.

I suspect the yard may be trying to precipitate swift decisions to write things off and move on.

How do you safely lift a boat when the hull has lost its integrity?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... How do you safely lift a boat when the hull has lost its integrity?

Well, maybe the salvors know how to work that out and the yard company travel lift operators do not.

 

[dunedin]

The OP was "Anybody here know much about travel hoists?" and the two people who do (Ribdriver in post 28 as a hoist rep, and myself as a hoist owner) basically agree that it is a simple job for a hoist to do and I will further add that in addition to our hoist we had three yard cranes on site two of which would easily lift the OP's boat - out of the three machines I would choose the hoist over the cranes every day of the week assuming adequate access - even if it was necessary to use a crane initially because of poor access, I would get the hoist in to take over at the earliest possible stage of the lift. It's a 'no-brainer' to me. Gut feeling is that me plus a couple of (knowledgable) yard lads would reasonably expect to lift upright and block off say four boats per day on average without causing further damage.

……..
Perhaps if the OP - or somebody appointed by him and other boat owners - were able to be on site in the yard, with a wedge of dollar bills to act as incentives, that might be possible.
But clearly from several thousand miles away that is going to be much more difficult to organise.

And if the yard has handed the “rights” to a salvage company, the latter are likely to block any DIY or boatyard attempts to do what they see as their revenue stream - and potentially contract terms.
I really feel for the OP - extremely difficult situation. How much is a return air ticket to go and negotiate on site (or extract any valuable possessions / kit before walking away)?

 

[Refueler]

Maybe I'm being over sensitive. This whole thing has been pretty draining, so I don't necessarily see the funny side.

I can appreciate that ... you must be feeling pretty low ..

Lets hope you get to see a light at end of tunnel soon.

 

[Sea Change]

Update:
I'm now aware of at least two insured boats whose insurance has agreed to the initial quote.
And one uninsured boat who has stood his ground and been offered a 50% discount on the original price. Well done that man. It's still over five times the usual yard rate.

Let's see how low we can get these pirates down.

 

[Sea Change]

I can appreciate that ... you must be feeling pretty low ..

Lets hope you get to see a light at end of tunnel soon.

Emotionally, the only thing I've gone through that has been close to this was losing a family member. I know the boat is just an inanimate object but it represents our only significant non-property asset and has been the focus of a thirteen year long dream to sail away. It's been my son's home from the age of five until eight, and his only school.

To go through the hurricane, watching everything at a distance, was not easy. Being threatened by profiteering sharks isn't great either. Having those sharks and their rates defended on this forum doesn't really feel great, got to admit, well done, you know who you are.

Rant over. The salvage company are already shifting their position. There's light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Refueler]

Emotionally, the only thing I've gone through that has been close to this was losing a family member. I know the boat is just an inanimate object but it represents our only significant non-property asset and has been the focus of a thirteen year long dream to sail away. It's been my son's home from the age of five until eight, and his only school.

To go through the hurricane, watching everything at a distance, was not easy. Being threatened by profiteering sharks isn't great either. Having those sharks and their rates defended on this forum doesn't really feel great, got to admit, well done, you know who you are.

Rant over. The salvage company are already shifting their position. There's light at the end of the tunnel.

I cracked the keel on an old fav boat of mine that is 'part of the family' .. even my Wife who is not a boater said regardless of cost - she must be repaired.

I understand fully.

I'm hoping and wishing you all the best with this ..

 

[Boathook]

I just wonder what the yard would do if no one accepted the salvage rates. A yard full of broken / damaged boats that will cost thousands to dispose off. I suppose that they could go through the courts but then they have to find the current owners, etc. The harbour authorities struggle over here with boats abandoned.

 

[Sea Change]

I just wonder what the yard would do if no one accepted the salvage rates. A yard full of broken / damaged boats that will cost thousands to dispose off. I suppose that they could go through the courts but then they have to find the current owners, etc. The harbour authorities struggle over here with boats abandoned.

If they go through the courts, we'll be counter claiming that:
a) the yard were negligent in their preparation for the hurricane.
b) the yard have no right to impose new terms and prices on us, where their existing services are a suitable alternative.

 

[geem]

If they go through the courts, we'll be counter claiming that:
a) the yard were negligent in their preparation for the hurricane.
b) the yard have no right to impose new terms and prices on us, where their existing services are a suitable alternative.

Maybe this should be a new thread but what would be the ideal set up for leaving your boat when a cat 4 hurricane is coming?
1. Concrete yard with inserts set in to the concrete that can take the substantial loads that will be applied.
2. Masts off all boats
3. All boats in cradles not on stands.

In my experience, none of the yards in Grenada have these features or take masts off.
The ground is gravel. They don't have cradles. Instead they use 3 leg stands. These simply are not up to dealing with hurricanes. When you get heavy rain, the ground goes soft. These stands move and/or vibrate out of place. Lots of boats get the stands punching through the hull when they go over.

The yards work on the basis that they won't be hit and they put the businesses into administration after a hurricane.
Anybody who leaves a boat in the Caribbean is also working on the basis that they won't get hit or if they do, it will be a cat 1 hurricane. Anything above this and the risk of substantial damage are high unless all 3 on my list are met. I suspect even without everything I suggested, there is still risk of damage.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

If they go through the courts, we'll be counter claiming that:
a) the yard were negligent in their preparation for the hurricane.
b) the yard have no right to impose new terms and prices on us, where their existing services are a suitable alternative.

You may find the cost of that vastly exceeds the quote that you find too expensive, plus there is a risk you may lose. Sometimes, the best action to limit cost escalations, especially for low value assets, is to recover ASAP and move on. You have been offered around £7.5k to lift the boat. I don't think that is an impossible sum of money to partly recover from a disaster, but grant that there are different views on that, for whatever reason e.g. also the cost to repair. It is good that others are negotiating lower rates, as it suggests that the salvor is open to negotiation. However, I would want to know how my boat will be secured, post recovery, to avoid a repeat, should another hurricane pass through. I don't believe for one moment leaving your cracked hull boat lying on its side is safer if another hurricane passed through. Some boats did stay up right as shown in the videos, IIRC.

 

[geem]

You may find the cost of that vastly exceeds the quote that you find too expensive, plus there is a risk you may lose. Sometimes, the best action to limit cost escalations, especially for low value assets, is to recover ASAP and move on. You have been offered around £7.5k to lift the boat. I don't think that is an impossible sum of money to partly recover from a disaster, but grant that there are different views on that, for whatever reason e.g. also the cost to repair. It is good that others are negotiating lower rates, as it suggests that the salvor is open to negotiation. However, I would want to know how my boat will be secured, post recovery, to avoid a repeat, should another hurricane pass through. I don't believe for one moment leaving your cracked hull boat lying on its side is safer if another hurricane passed through. Some boats did stay up right as shown in the videos, IIRC.

It's extortion. The OPs boat is in a yard with easy access. It has already been confirmed it can be lifted with a travel hoist. $1000 would be a reasonable cost assuming additional work required beyond a normal travel hoist lift.