Anybody here know much about travel hoists?

[Refueler]

Well that's easy to say in hindsight, we are where we are and there's no point in racking up even more expense at this point.

My working hypothesis is that the BVI based salvage company were very keen to do the job, based on lucrative previous experience with Irma and Maria, and figured that by being first on the scene they would get the job. Hence the almost immediate mobilisation of lifting gear to right yachts which won't actually be looking to launch any time soon anyway. Pretty disgusting when there are homes, hospitals, schools etc missing their roofs. Any heavy equipment on the island should be doing those jobs first. The yacht owners haven't asked for this priority treatment. The salvage company are moving faster than the insurance companies, so are now standing around idle waiting on approval to start work, and we are being threatened with higher bills if we don't immediately agree to their terms.

But for those of you who feel they have to play devil's advocate and fight the salvage company's corner, fine, I guess that's what the internet is for. I didn't come here looking for sympathy!

I hear your pain ... and understand that they are relying on you being between a rock and hard place ...

I still think a get together of owners to show solidarity and propose reasonable solution .. all time owners go it alone you just get deeper and deeper in the mire. Not to be confrontational - but to work together with the yard ... who knows what will then be ??

And lets be honest - unlikely you will find answer on the forum .. as no-one except you has the whole picture.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… But for those of you who feel they have to play devil's advocate and fight the salvage company's corner, fine, I guess that's what the internet is for. I didn't come here looking for sympathy!

You started the thread and have entered into a discussion. Opinions are offered as part of a discourse. I don’t think it is playing devils advocate.

Pretty sure everyone on this thread, including me, hope you get your boat back and repaired as fast as possible and at an acceptable cost. Clearly it’s not an easy situation to manage remotely, or I suppose even on location.

 

[B27]

Well that's easy to say in hindsight, we are where we are and there's no point in racking up even more expense at this point.

My working hypothesis is that the BVI based salvage company were very keen to do the job, based on lucrative previous experience with Irma and Maria, and figured that by being first on the scene they would get the job. Hence the almost immediate mobilisation of lifting gear to right yachts which won't actually be looking to launch any time soon anyway. Pretty disgusting when there are homes, hospitals, schools etc missing their roofs. Any heavy equipment on the island should be doing those jobs first. The yacht owners haven't asked for this priority treatment. The salvage company are moving faster than the insurance companies, so are now standing around idle waiting on approval to start work, and we are being threatened with higher bills if we don't immediately agree to their terms.

But for those of you who feel they have to play devil's advocate and fight the salvage company's corner, fine, I guess that's what the internet is for. I didn't come here looking for sympathy!

The salvage company can only do what it's hired to do, with the tools it has.
It can't rebuild hospitals etc it won't have the materials or the skills.
But all the general handy people who might ordinarily work for you as an alternative to the salvage co, like scaffolders, blokes with hiabs etc, will be a tad busy for the foreseeable.

When people are called out to a foreign country, on an ad-hoc basis, they are generally getting a lot of money for it.
Plumbers, mercenaries, oil workers, engineers,....

Your problem is with the marina/yard., who have firstly let your boat fall over and secondly put you in the hands of the salvage company.
Maybe the way forward is to collectively negotiate a different solution with the yard, but you'd need to understand local law and your contract with the yard.
A mate's brother lost his boat in the Holyhead Marina debacle. From that, I can to some extent understand the yard's desire to make progress, everything to do with boats takes twice as long as it should at the best of times, they need to have a viable business for next season.
There are probably quite a few insured boats where the best outcome is a write off, and a number uninsured where repair is not economically viable. There will be a glut of 'damaged projects' and a shortage of repair labour in the area for a while, so boats which might be ordinarily worth repairing may now not be. So not everyone's needs are the same. Are there many people whose needs align with yours? I'd suggest being careful about who you team up with.

 

[dunedin]

Very difficult situation, made more so by the distance.
Another benefit if you can organise a group of boat owners, might be that you could jointly fund somebody to fly out and be your eyes, ears and influencer on the ground?
Hope you get a successful outcome at (semi) reasonable cost.

 

[webcraft]

I would say that the only thing you can do is make it quite clear that if this is the only offer on the table you will make your own arrangements for righting the boat.

Tell the yard you think it can be done with the travel hoist and see what they say.

Make it clear that you will not be paying this 'salvage company' to do the work. I might also be tempted to let them know that you will hold the yard responsible for any further damage to the boat.

The yard is not going to be able to get money out of you if you have not agreed, and they would incur considerable cost disposing of your boat if you walked away.

What are other owners in a similar position saying? It might even be worth looking tentatively into local legal help if a group of you can get together.

About Grenada - Mitchell & Co. | Attorneys | Lawyers

 

[geem]

What was actually needed was a yard not hopelessly exposed to hurricanes and using Mickey Mouse supports.
It looks like it would never have survived a poor Summer in Cornwall.

Every yard in the Caribbean islands is hopelessly exposed to hurricanes. When you get a cat 4 hurricane, it destroys everything in its path. The only reliable solution for a cruiser there in hurricane season is to not have you or your boat there. I have seen the damage for myself after hurricane Ivan. Ivan was a cat 3 when it went over Grenada. The destruction was massive. I tell every cruiser I meet who is thinking of leaving a boat in one of the yards, not to do it. Some listen and some don't.
The yards in Grenada that were hit in 2004 were no better. Spice Island put themselves into administration following the hurricane. The insurance assessors arrived after the hurricane. They assessed the damage to the boats on their sides before the yard had done anything to recover fallen over boats. Once the yard started to lift boats, they did further damage. The insurance companies refused to cover for the additional damage, telling owners to seek damages from the yard. The yard were not insured for the damage they did. It was a total fiasco.

 

[geem]

Well that's easy to say in hindsight, we are where we are and there's no point in racking up even more expense at this point.

My working hypothesis is that the BVI based salvage company were very keen to do the job, based on lucrative previous experience with Irma and Maria, and figured that by being first on the scene they would get the job. Hence the almost immediate mobilisation of lifting gear to right yachts which won't actually be looking to launch any time soon anyway. Pretty disgusting when there are homes, hospitals, schools etc missing their roofs. Any heavy equipment on the island should be doing those jobs first. The yacht owners haven't asked for this priority treatment. The salvage company are moving faster than the insurance companies, so are now standing around idle waiting on approval to start work, and we are being threatened with higher bills if we don't immediately agree to their terms.

But for those of you who feel they have to play devil's advocate and fight the salvage company's corner, fine, I guess that's what the internet is for. I didn't come here looking for sympathy!

I think you are right to do nothing at the moment. It would be crazy to spend any money at this stage since it is another month until the peak of hurricane season. It is quite possible that there could be another hurricane and any money spent could be a total waste.

 

[Sea Change]

Every yard in the Caribbean islands is hopelessly exposed to hurricanes. When you get a cat 4 hurricane, it destroys everything in its path. The only reliable solution for a cruiser there in hurricane season is to not have you or your boat there. I have seen the damage for myself after hurricane Ivan. Ivan was a cat 3 when it went over Grenada. The destruction was massive. I tell every cruiser I meet who is thinking of leaving a boat in one of the yards, not to do it. Some listen and some don't.
The yards in Grenada that were hit in 2004 were no better. Spice Island put themselves into administration following the hurricane. The insurance assessors arrived after the hurricane. They assessed the damage to the boats on their sides before the yard had done anything to recover fallen over boats. Once the yard started to lift boats, they did further damage. The insurance companies refused to cover for the additional damage, telling owners to seek damages from the yard. The yard were not insured for the damage they did. It was a total fiasco.

That's interesting... handing the salvage operation entirely over to another company would at least protect the yard from further liability. That could explain their actions, to some extent.
Unfortunately it's a move which won't work because it's looking like the vast majority of boat owners aren't going to be able to pay the very high salvage costs.

 

[Sandy]

No. And neither do many of the boats. Even those with insurance are very concerned that it won't pay out.

I rest my case.

 

[Sandy]

If they were doing this properly, we would have bespoke quotes explaining the costs. I shouldn't need somebody on an internet forum to fight their corner.

Instead, we have a flat rate with no breakdown, which suggests that they are simply sharks trying to get as much money out of this situation as possible.

I see it in a totally different way, who said I was fighting their corner? Just trying to work out why you are annoyed at getting a estimate/quote for a job that you were not expecting and are not insured for.

Looking at the problem from a commercial angle. I'd need to employ labour and equipment for a non-standard lift. Each and every lift in the yard will be non-standard. There is a significant risk to my kit and my staff in carrying out such work. As you don't have insurance, and if what you are saying nobody else does, the risk is all mine should something happen to my kit or staff. Would yo do it for less in such circumstances?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

If they were doing this properly, we would have bespoke quotes explaining the costs. I shouldn't need somebody on an internet forum to fight their corner.

Instead, we have a flat rate with no breakdown, which suggests that they are simply sharks trying to get as much money out of this situation as possible.

I am not so sure of sharks, more likely that they have a flat rate to cover all the extremes and everything in between, more complex and simple. Lump sum work generally is used where risk is transferred to the vendor, rather than the customer and you always pay more for that i.e. time based rates are not used. This price differentiation is quite common.

 

[fredrussell]

I still think a get together of owners to show solidarity and propose reasonable solution .. all time owners go it alone you just get deeper and deeper in the mire. Not to be confrontational - but to work together with the yard ... who knows what will then be ??

Good call this. And should it come to using a lawyer, (and I hope for your sake it doesn’t) at least you’re all chipping in for one lawyer instead of being represented individually.

It seems to me the vultures are indeed circling. By that I mean it’s VERY soon after the islands decimation for a foreign salvage team to turn up and start righting a non essential thing like a boat.

 

[Sea Change]

I see it in a totally different way, who said I was fighting their corner? Just trying to work out why you are annoyed at getting a estimate/quote for a job that you were not expecting and are not insured for.

You don't know why I'm annoyed at being told I have to pay $10,000 to do a job that could be done at usual rates for under $500?

Looking at the problem from a commercial angle. I'd need to employ labour and equipment for a non-standard lift. Each and every lift in the yard will be non-standard. There is a significant risk to my kit and my staff in carrying out such work. As you don't have insurance, and if what you are saying nobody else does, the risk is all mine should something happen to my kit or staff.

What risk is there to a 150t travel hoist in lifting an 8.5t boat?

Sure there is risk in lifting a damaged boat, but that risk is to the boat itself.

Would yo do it for less in such circumstances?

I'm a trained crane and telehandler operator, by the way. Give me the right equipment and I'll happily do this job for free.

 

[Sea Change]

I am not so sure of sharks, more likely that they have a flat rate to cover all the extremes and everything in between, more complex and simple. Lump sum work generally is used where risk is transferred to the vendor, rather than the customer and you always pay more for that i.e. time based rates are not used. This price differentiation is quite common.

Everybody is being charged $250 per foot of vessel. This includes cats which are sitting essentially intact and upright, and only need a straight lift. It also includes monos on their sides, trapped between other boats, which is rather more complex.

 

[lustyd]

Everybody is being charged $250 per foot of vessel. This includes cats which are sitting essentially intact and upright, and only need a straight lift. It also includes monos on their sides, trapped between other boats, which is rather more complex.

I know you're not at sea, but this does follow traditional approaches to losses with Lloyds. If a container falls off a ship, every customer suffers a loss rather than just that one company.
Not helpful towards a solution, but might go some way to explain the approach being taken which is likely under the heading "maritime losses"

 

[Sea Change]

I know you're not at sea, but this does follow traditional approaches to losses with Lloyds. If a container falls off a ship, every customer suffers a loss rather than just that one company.
Not helpful towards a solution, but might go some way to explain the approach being taken which is likely under the heading "maritime losses"

That kind of makes sense until everybody loses their container at the same time.

 

[geem]

I see it in a totally different way, who said I was fighting their corner? Just trying to work out why you are annoyed at getting a estimate/quote for a job that you were not expecting and are not insured for.

Looking at the problem from a commercial angle. I'd need to employ labour and equipment for a non-standard lift. Each and every lift in the yard will be non-standard. There is a significant risk to my kit and my staff in carrying out such work. As you don't have insurance, and if what you are saying nobody else does, the risk is all mine should something happen to my kit or staff. Would yo do it for less in such circumstances?

I don't see it like that. It's easy for these yards to get a bad reputation. If everybody in these yards is ripped off by the process the yard put in place, word will get around, it could be that nobody wants to use them for several years until memories fade. Not a great business model.
If the salvage company expect to get paid for their work, they need to provide method statements and risk assessments with an estimate of the time and equipment required to do the lift. A blanket cost suggests that some people with a relatively easy lift will subsidise those with more complex requirements. That is not an acceptable way of working.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Everybody is being charged $250 per foot of vessel. This includes cats which are sitting essentially intact and upright, and only need a straight lift. It also includes monos on their sides, trapped between other boats, which is rather more complex.

That’s lump sum but you are aware of the norm they use to charge you.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… If the salvage company expect to get paid for their work, they need to provide method statements and risk assessments with an estimate of the time and equipment required to do the lift. A blanket cost suggests that some people with a relatively easy lift will subsidise those with more complex requirements. That is not an acceptable way of working.

The issue the salvage company faces is that no one is under any obligation to use them, even if they have mobilised to the island.

They don’t have to provide any “method statements” or “risk assessments”.

 

[geem]

The issue the salvage company faces is that no one is under any obligation to use them, even if they have mobilised to the island.

They don’t have to provide any “method statements” or “risk assessments”.

They do if they are offering a service and an associated cost. If they proposed to lift my boat, I would want to know how they are going to undertake the job and what equipment they were proposing to use. Otherwise, why would you hand over $10k?