Anybody else not, qualified?

[trapper guy]

It is to get people into the habit of how to speak on a VHF radio in order that others understand what is going on.

We can all recite examples of, usually fisherfolk, general chatter.

Originally, I was taught on a different net where it custom to start a transmission with, 'Hello X this is Y', the instructor peered over his halfmoon glasses and said that is not how we do it on marine band.

On visiting Portsmouth last week I needed to talk to KHM, in Plymouth we just call 'Longroom' or 'Flag', lots of us need to use the VHF for things other than MAYDAYS.

On the topic of Solent 'radio checks' I did not hear any, where were you all? The wind was a good 25 knots gusting 35 and the sea was slight.

where was i?
at the anchor point indicated on the charts at bognor regis.
it was early may though.

 

[johnalison]

So one day skipper passed and you found them to be lacking and then you damn the whole scheme?

Yes, that’s how my little world works. My first encounter with a yachtmaster was in 1978 when we were joined on a club cruise by a chap who I shall call Steve because that was his name. The trouble he got into within only three weeks would be enough to fill a book, but it did provide us and our other companions with plenty of entertainment. It did rather put me off the idea of qualifications at a time when they were in any case much less common. By the time they became general I had lost the energy for self-improvement but our other companions on that trip did do theirs. On another occasion a YM instructor was crewing for me and had to wake me in the night to help him identify some ship’s lights, so I tend to regard the qualifications, worthwhile though I believe them to be, as basically a licence to continue learning.

 

[The Q]

As far as sailing is concerned, Almost 50 years ago took a weeks dinghy course in the RAF ( had put in leave for the time off), which we didn't finish due to gales on the last two days and that's it. I've sailed at sea in several places round the UK, and have the skill to go ploughing off Into the wild grey yonder..
However... I have no inclination to spend hours heading off on one course for hours any more. I'm happy to prop up the bar between races these days.

As for VHF I could do that correctly too, without licence training, but correct radio procedure was part of former work.

 

[Sea Change]

why ould anyone want to enter dublin?
greystones is a much nicer location

I don't know why, I've never sailed in to Dublin.
I was cutting across the harbour mouth on my way to an anchorage just to the south. According to my charts I was just outside the harbour limits but that didn't stop the lady from the VTS calling me up and telling me that I needed permission to enter the harbour.
Rather presumptive of her, but in her defence she had a lovely accent so it wasn't all bad.

 

[capnsensible]

For an American's point of view, this is at least as funny as an anchor thread. If the irony is not obvious, then it can't be explained.

Ah, an American talking about irony. Jolly interesting concept old chap. Good effort.

 

[Zing]

I think it's a great privilege that Brits (Yanks and Canucks too) don't need a qualification to sail. It's not so in much of Europe, where the interfering bureaucrats require their citizens to prove their ability first. There is a lack of trust in that and a notion that people won't do the right thing and get the knowledge needed until compelled to do. The less we have of government poking its nose into our lives the better.

Anyway, with decades of non-qualified boating behind me I reluctantly did a private ICC test (and passed) so I could sail the Med without hassle from little Hitlers. The test was somewhat of a joke and undermines the value of the thing. If so little was required of the boater to pass the test as was required of me then from the perspective of proving you know what you are doing the ICC is a waste of time. Keeping bureaucrats happy is an entirely different issue.

 

[Gustywinds]

Ah, an American talking about irony. Jolly interesting concept old chap. Good effort.

Its kinda like steely only not as strong?

 

[Bristolfashion]

I don’t recall it being a factor, or even discussed at all on my course/exam, maybe I’ll take that as a compliment. I got into cruisers on the back of being a long standing dinghy sailor though. You should also bear in mind that there are sailing schools with far less experienced staff than you and John, a couple of old shellbacks.

Weirdly, I got the most training on sail handling on our competent crew course - there was just me and the wife and, like real swots, we were very prepared - which meant we covered all the course work in about 2 days and spent the other days being tutored on actual sailing. Excellent.

 

[finestgreen]

I think some people in this thread are hugely overestimating the standard that DS is supposed to convey.

It's a five day course that someone with a week or two of crewing can reasonably expect to pass. At the end of it, you get a completion certificate - not a competency certificate - if you've been able to demonstrate all the things on the syllabus under close supervision and coaching.

"This person passed DS but then still made mistakes when sailing" - duh.

 

[Bristolfashion]

I find these threads a bit weird to be honest. Clearly, in order to drive / sail / do heart surgery, you need to learn some stuff somehow and practice enough to be competent. Courses impart some agreed range of knowledge and exams demonstrate that the level of knowledge has been attained - either because the actions undertaken is considered critical. I don't fancy an unqualified doctor - but I'd also like my surgery carried out by someone that's practiced up to a level of competency.

Pure learning by doing is absolutely fine, but it can be a bit tricky if you need to pass an exam for some reason

When it comes to sailing, I'm pretty happy that I've been forced to learn the whole range of colregs, safety etc & not just the ones I might have used locally. Similarly, the highway code - I've never seen a "countdown to a concealed level crossing" road sign, but I'll recognise it if I do!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I find these threads a bit weird to be honest. Clearly, in order to drive / sail / do heart surgery, you need to learn some stuff somehow and practice enough to be competent. Courses impart some agreed range of knowledge and exams demonstrate that the level of knowledge has been attained - either because the actions undertaken is considered critical. I don't fancy an unqualified doctor - but I'd also like my surgery carried out by someone that's practiced up to a level of competency.

Pure learning by doing is absolutely fine, but it can be a bit tricky if you need to pass an exam for some reason

When it comes to sailing, I'm pretty happy that I've been forced to learn the whole range of colregs, safety etc & not just the ones I might have used locally. Similarly, the highway code - I've never seen a "countdown to a concealed level crossing" road sign, but I'll recognise it if I do!

I learned to sail by doing, and from others I sailed with. Yachtmaster theory/ nav at an official evening course, before we took our cruiser anywhere away from home waters. I am wholly behind instruction as a means of learning to take your yacht to sea (and back) safely. In spite of the nature of day skipper, or the motor boat level 2, the lack of basic competence and seamanship shown by the bloke I know, which I’m sure is similar to the situation the OP mentions, surprises me. If you’re on a boat with the guy, it’s glaringly obvious he has no sense of his boat, the sea, or prevailing conditions. No love of his gel coat apparently. We had almost a comedy when he rafted on us once. We left 3 fenders between us and the pontoon, every other we possessed was on our seaward side. He either just styled that out or failed to notice. One or 2 random fenders appeared as he approached, and a bowline, for a down tide approach. Presumably he ticked the boxed for a level 2, but surely there is more to it?

 

[Bouba]

I would be happy if yacht training only consisted of parking. Crash landing into my boat isn’t an acceptable way to stop

 

[thinwater]

There was a radio (VHF) licensing requirements (and qualifications) in the US, but it was abandoned about 30 years ago when they figured out that it didn't help. People did all the same dumb stuff either way.

In the US they focus on simple power boater qualifications, and that doesn't keep them from running each other over and drinking too much and falling off (not in any particular order). Sailing accidents are so rare they don't merit special focus.

The USCG lists that primary reason that cell phones don't work well for distress that people use social media all day and kill the battery. Really. Twitter. IMO, chlorine is a good thing in the shallow end of the gene pool.

 

[ylop]

I guess nowdays with so many huge boats afloat, for some, formal accountability is an important status to have.

Still plenty of options for the course-phobic but would you rent a boat to a stranger with no proof of vague competence? Would you insure my boat against all risks without wondering if I am clueless? If you were going to spend the value of a small flat on something you’ve never done before would you consider spending <0.5% of the purchase price learning how to reduce the chance of damaging it

Women are different….men will try something new…women will take a course first.

Nonsense. People are different. I can take you to men who get a course for everything and women who have a natural give it a go attitude and aptitude.

Went sailing a bit ago with a newly qualified DS. Was shocked at how poor tghe boat handling skills were. Gybing without controlling the main, tacking without warning crew to give them time to prepare. Apparently this is hardly assessed now in the DS course. Lack of practical experience in my opinion. Eventually I hd to take over skippering for our own and the boats safety.

Did he do comp crew first? When I did my DS everyone else on board was doing CC and this was definitely drilled into them. Some people on here advocate skipping CC. It’s also very easy to forget stuff that was on your course even a few months later, and we all default to, “I was never taught that” if challenged rather than “I forgot”.

I know someone well who is an example of this, and he’s equally disastrous in a sailboat, though he’s not been examined for that. I don’t know where he did his level 2, nor do I understand how he passed.

He only needed to practice his stuff for a pb2 course in one specific set of scenarios and repeat the process about 15 minutes after being shown - not recall it months later with wind and tide in different directions on a different boat etc. it’s actually quite hard to fail PB2 - although I know one person who was made to come back for an extra 1/2 day!

which left me wondering why the license is even needed, except for conversation at sea?
because i cant think of any reason why i would want to use a radio unless i felt i needed help.

Calling:
- marinas
- harbour masters
- VTS
- coastguard for non emergency stuff
- ships eg I’ve occasionally contacted a ship to let them know I was going to do something odd
- other leisure users eg to advise of a change of plan or let them know their dinghy was upside down behind them (and they should maybe look outside occasionally!)
- responding to other people’s pan-pans
Etc.

But most importantly- having the confidence to use the radio when actually needed.

although I suspect that some form of government assistance has led to everything becoming an apprenticeship

Much lower minimum wage for apprentices, and I think no requirement to keep them at the end of their training….

 

[Bristolfashion]

I learned to sail by doing, and from others I sailed with. Yachtmaster theory/ nav at an official evening course, before we took our cruiser anywhere away from home waters. I am wholly behind instruction as a means of learning to take your yacht to sea (and back) safely. In spite of the nature of day skipper, or the motor boat level 2, the lack of basic competence and seamanship shown by the bloke I know, which I’m sure is similar to the situation the OP mentions, surprises me. If you’re on a boat with the guy, it’s glaringly obvious he has no sense of his boat, the sea, or prevailing conditions. No love of his gel coat apparently. We had almost a comedy when he rafted on us once. We left 3 fenders between us and the pontoon, every other we possessed was on our seaward side. He either just styled that out or failed to notice. One or 2 random fenders appeared as he approached, and a bowline, for a down tide approach. Presumably he ticked the boxed for a level 2, but surely there is more to it?

Well, I guess there's common sense as well!

We learned a very good way to tie up and depart on our DS - with a crew of 5. Of course, we then had to apply that knowledge and come up with the best way to do it on a smaller boat with a crew of 2.

There's also "that didn't go very well, how can we do it better".

 

[Bouba]

Much lower minimum wage for apprentices, and I think no requirement to keep them at the end of their training….

That would explain a lot

 

[Bouba]

Nonsense. People are different. I can take you to men who get a course for everything and women who have a natural give it a go attitude and aptitude.

I was talking about real men….not the wimps on this forum

 

[Boathook]

I was talking about real men….not the wimps on this forum

You are only speaking for yourself and possibly a few others ............

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Well, I guess there's common sense as well!

We learned a very good way to tie up and depart on our DS - with a crew of 5. Of course, we then had to apply that knowledge and come up with the best way to do it on a smaller boat with a crew of 2.

There's also "that didn't go very well, how can we do it better".

That is indeed how it should work. Doing a course certainly doesn’t mean you know everything. And sometimes modify your knowledge with time and experience. We did struggle a bit with close quarters handling of our DF when we first had her. I surprised a friend recently, a YM examiner and vastly experienced blue water sailor, by reversing up to our pontoon, in a brisk NE wind, and having him step off the end of the ama with a stern line. He did accept the instruction though, which parks us hanging off that line. We winch the bow in with a snatch block on a soft shackle to the bow cleat on the pontoon. No idea if that is a pass or a fail, but he did note it was drama free with no threat to life or property. I explained we’d given up the impossible. You cannot drive her onto the mooring with a cross wind over 15kn.

 

[Bouba]

That is indeed how it should work. Doing a course certainly doesn’t mean you know everything. And sometimes modify your knowledge with time and experience. We did struggle a bit with close quarters handling of our DF when we first had her. I surprised a friend recently, a YM examiner and vastly experienced blue water sailor, by reversing up to our pontoon, in a brisk NE wind, and having him step off the end of the ama with a stern line. He did accept the instruction though, which parks us hanging off that line. We winch the bow in with a snatch block on a soft shackle to the bow cleat on the pontoon. No idea if that is a pass or a fail, but he did note it was drama free with no threat to life or property. I explained we’d given up the impossible. You cannot drive her onto the mooring with a cross wind over 15kn.

I think you make a valuable point…you can and should be the best person in the world at handling your own boat, especially in your own berth. Qualifications mean that you should be at least competent in any boat or situation