An open letter to Twister Ken

[beancounter]

Dear Ken,

I’ve just finished reading your article on AWBs in this month’s YM. Your lyrical ode puts forward a forceful case for a certain school of yacht design & construction, but I feel obliged to say a few words in support of your friend (still – I hope) Sam.

I don’t see the AWB vs. “modern classic” debate as a zero sum game; a positive for one is not automatically a minus for the other. It’s all about the idea of “horses for courses”. Although you dismissed the idea of a comparison between cars & boats, I happen to think that the examples chosen by Sam (Volkswagen vs. MGB) illustrate a good point.

I suspect that for many of us here, sailing, like much of life itself, is about compromise. I know that “Compromise is the language of the Devil”, but many of us have to reach a Faustian bargain in order to pursue the hobby we love.

Here’s my own pact with Mephistopheles. I appreciate the beauty of the types of craft you were espousing in your article. I can go as misty-eyed as the next man when admiring some gaff-rigged Classic. The sight of a square-rigger under full sail induces a weakness at my knees only matched by seeing the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (but that’s for another day). However, my good lady does not share this romantic view of boats, and, since I want sailing to be an activity we pursue as a couple, then I know that we are going to have to accommodate some of her preferences. Many of the designs from the 60’s and 70’s are distinctly cosy below; my wife wants the ability to accommodate our offspring or our friends in some comfort. Older designs tend to rely on converting saloon seating to beds; we’ve done the “falling over bodies on the way to the Porta-Potti” bit in our days in tents and trailer tents. Hence two cabins and decent elbow room below must feature on our requirements.

So my mission is to get a boat with the best sailing abilities within the parameters set by the above – it’s not Mission Impossible, I’m sure. However, it may lead me down some of those dark roads that your article suggests we shun, but I’m confident that we’ll be happy with the result.

The acid test for all boat owners, whether they sail a Contessa 32, a Bavaria 32 or a bathtub, is surely the feeling of “roll on the weekend so we can go sailing”. If we feel that, then we’ve got the right boat.

Fair winds

John

 

[Guest]

I am a person who does really not appreciate AWB's at all, coming from the other side of the fence. But I can buy in to your argument, I think that you are right.

I am glad that I personally haven't had to make such a compromise. Of course, ANY boat is a compromise, but what I mean is that I have not had to compromise what I regard as important in a boat. I can appreciate that it may be either the right thing, or just a necessary thing, for others.

What I do not buy into is when people try to argue (which you are not doing) that AWB's are better because modern design has moved on in a positive sense in the last 30 years. In some ways design has (vessels like B&Q, development of certain lightweight materials etc.) moved forwards, but AWB's are IMHO not an example of this.

 

[Windfall]

No real arguement with these thoughts either. Infact Beancounter summed it up very nicely...if you can't wait to go sailing you've got the right boat (for you).

But just musing really, as the owner of a 70's classic (She 31b - not disimilar Simon but even more cosy than your Contessa)...where these the AWB's of their day?

 

[Sans Bateau]

I always say 'thank you' to anyone who maintains and sails a classic boat. A real classic, all wood, lots of varnish and brass with wooden spars and tan sails. They look a real picture out on the water.

Two points though, whilst I congratulate the owner of the true classic, I would NOT want all that varnishing and polishing myself. Point two as Windfall says a lot of 70's classics were probabley seen as AWB's in their day and there are a lot of very scruffy ones around now, not the well cared for examples we would like to think of, far from the lovely example that Simoncr owns, go on simon show us yer photo!

PS I own an MGB GT and a mk4 Sprite

 

[Twister_Ken]

Well said.

(sound of applause fades gently)

Deep down (and hating to admit it) i suspect that the AWB builders have – in some instances – learnt the error of their ways and that their latest products address some of the shortcomings that were so manifest in their 90's output. At least, reading between the lines of JJs boat tests, one begins to get that feeling.

My last AWB (discounting a couple of Benny 'point 7' racing boats which were always the exception) experience was a 2000 Jeanneau Sun Oddity 42 which had much to detest, but I suspect the game has moved on a bit since then.

Maybe YM will offer me a boat test – the curmudgeon's point of view – and we can see whether my words need to be eaten!

-----------

Another thought - why do we own boats, if not to go sailing. After all, if we wanted elbow room, comfort, a sea view and cat swinging room then a caravan at Selsey Bill would do the trick.

So if we own a boat, it should provide a good sailing experience, inspiring if possible, good if not, but not so-so, not hum drum, not merely OK, and certainly not frustrating.

 

[Evadne]

You never see an old AWB

I think you've hit the nail on the head, many designs filled the "AWB" pigeonhole in their day. Once they have become familiar they are "classics" (except to owners of still older designs, but we won't go there just now). I still find it hard to get used to people describing the older Westerlies as traditional, solid designs. In PBO et. al. in the seventies and eighties they were the flimsy, lightweight modern designs.

One thing I do agree with from Ken's article however, is the "outside in" view. Form should follow function and a boat like the narrow beamed, low-slung boat with a pronounced sheer, designed for seakeeping ability first, is a beautiful shape. This is part of the pleasure of sailing her. I will always think that the high freeboard, slab-sided, broad transomed look is rather ugly, however comfortable and practical they are inside.

 

[beancounter]

Thanks!

Regarding your last paragraph, the point I was trying (probably a tad incoherently) to make, was that it's not a black/white thing - sailing vs non-sailing factors - it's a continuum. At one end there is the full on, buttock-clenching racing machine, at the other end there is, well , the mobile home.
We will each find our own spot on this continuum, and that point will be the result of preferences and compromises.

John

 

[Guest]

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Flattery will get you nowhere! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Ships_Cat]

Liked your comments. It also depends where one sails (or doesn't, as the case may be /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

We live in a boisterous part of the world with heavy conditions and, perhaps surprisingly to some, I would rather sail many AWB's here than many low freeboard, narrow beamed wet submarines that many of the supposedly "more desirable for sailing" older boats are.

{I don't own an AWB so not married to them}.

John

 

[Twister_Ken]

For Simon

Trick of the light, Simon, or is her mast raked forward a tad?

Gorgeous sight, though.

 

[Guest]

Re: For Simon

Don't worry, just distortion introduced by a widish angle lens!

 

[Robin]

Freedom of choice is what making compromises is about as Simon rightly said. However my particular beef on this subject is the tendency by many towards sweeping generalisations and this includes the very definition of AWBs to a) be any boat from certain builders or b) any boat/design newer than the '70s c) any boat with a fin keel as opposed to a long keel.

There have been some very good boats as well as some very average ones churned out since the '70s and in my opinion each should be judged on it's merit for the market it was aimed at. Our boat is a 1988 cruiser/racer from an 'AWB' builder but I would say it is an attractive boat, surprisingly perhaps well built and with a performance that would put a grin on any face despite having a very comfy layout below. OK maybe not strictly what folks mean by an AWB, who knows or cares.

Yachting World this month is running a comparison test between a big new Moody and a big new Jeanneau that I believe costs £170,000 less! For sailing they prefer the Jeanneau and I rather suspect from the tone of the article they question very strongly what little you get for the additional money. Perhaps TK et al would consider both of these as AWBs anyway!

Personally I too love the looks of the Twisters, Contessas, Hustlers and the likes not to mention the Old Gaffers (and I learned to sail on one and did a Tall Ships Race on one) but nowadays I'm afraid they are out performed by some (but not all for sure) newer designs and certainly out comforted! I look at some of these 'boats with soul' as TK said, with great admiration, both for their unquestionably pretty lines but also with pity for the discomfort that their crews will accept as THEIR compromise.

To use the car analogy, I used to rally drive in my yoof in a Mini Cooper S and thought it was a superb car. I had a chance to drive one again a few years ago and discovered that nostalgia wasn't all it was cracked up to be. It was slow, uncomfortable, noisy and didn't hold the road anything like my rose tinted memory told me and indeed it was outdone by even the most humble modern car, even dare I say it the AWB of cars the Skoda!

 

[tome]

Re: For Simon

Hmmm

 

[Sans Bateau]

I dont think it is all black and white, there are a good number of boats in production today that do not appeal to the AWB buyer, simply because they dont have the volume below. This is the result of narrow sterns and lower freeboard. If you can trade off some of the volume that is so popular plus pay a bit more per metre for quality, you can get a boat that fits the middle ground

 

[Ships_Cat]

Another point is that one of the biggest contributors to safety and comfort at sea in a yacht is waterline length. One can get an awful lot more waterline length out of "AWB's" for ones budget than one can from a design/construction of supposedly "greater quality" and the same age.

John

 

[Robin]

In Adlard Coles classic book 'Heavy Weather Sailing' he describes the ocean racing scene over many years and especially noticeable to us youngsters (I wish) is the fact that in the 'good old days' they stopped racing especially upwind above certain wind strengths, they would seek shelter, or heave to offshore. Indeed a race could be won or lost by the timing of a decision to stop racing upwind or to restart again.

I remember the lovely Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter 'Theodora' from doing the Tall Ships with Ocean Youth Club. You needed to ask permission to come up from below to time the appearance to miss the seas rolling along the lee decks but which occasionally reached the centreline. Oh and we hove to in a gale on that race despite being on a 65 footer weighing in at god knows what! Another OYC boat then was nicknamed 'El Sub' for her tendences to shoulder the green stuff mostly over the crew below...

 

[Gunfleet]

Wasn't it a family crew on a Rustler or Nicholson that rode out the Fastnet storm while all around them big racers were foundering? I think a proportionately narrow hull and a whacking great weight of lead hanging below have at least as much influence.

 

[paulrossall]

Twister Ken
On the forim trip to Cherbourg in 2003 am I not correct in remembering that you turned back in your Twister because of the conditions yet you completed the trip in an AWB?
I would not buy a AWB because I prefer the older designs and consider them better value for money. Paul

 

[Twister_Ken]

Yes and no.

WL helps, but not if it's a product of a straight stem and an extended transom, both of which have flat sections under them. If that's the case then she'll slam, which is just about the most uncomfortable motion of all, this side of bad shellfish.

 

[tome]

Our previous boat was 28ft. Only boat I've ever turned back from a channel xing. The waterline length makes it impossible to make progress in a certain channel chop, although fine in open waters. Nowt to do with AWBs.