PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Sorry, but this is incorrect for LifeP04.
I can discharge mine @ 140a at 24v, so 280a if it was 12v, down to 80% with a life of 8000 cycles
Rather than change to LiFePo batteries, how about an intigrated 'Power Station?'
- Thread starter rotrax
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I can discharge mine @ 140a at 24v, so 280a if it was 12v, down to 80% with a life of 8000 cycles
Refueler
Well-known member
Holy Smoly ..... Go back and read what's posted ...
I was comparing to not only the budget way - but also against the 1400 odd price of the Power Pack ...
Do not also forget that it is not only capacity of the Li battery whatever its Li combo .... but C Rate as well .... BOTH together can ramp up a price before you get to add-on stuff ...........
Up to speed with marine LiFe ......
Tranona
Well-known member
That may well be so but it does not mean that it is a product that will appeal to a wider boating market. Sponsoring fringe activities is a cheap way at getting to fringe markets.
If they did see pleasure boat owners as a prime market it would feature in their mainstream promotional material in the same way as camping a RV for example where it clearly provides positive benefits.
Refueler
Well-known member
Sorry Paul .... EVERY battery form has a max C rate .... Li are one of the most wide ranging for this ..... also that the max amps you should draw THEORETICALLY is C x capacity .... but I'm sure you know that .... so lets say you have a 100 A/hr LiFe and as you are saying drawing down at 140A .... you are only drawing a very low C rate.
You are using no doubt of reputable brand and not a budget price. You say I am wrong because you've ignored C rate and capacity to explain your results ... but that same also explains why I say about battery life.
Imagine a person reading a forum .... Hey Guy go out buy a LiFePo ... which is a Lithium Ferrous battery with a Polymer addition ... and he reads half info ... decides that he can discharge lower than LA .. he can discharge at high rates unlike his old LA .... so he buys a small battery ......... and wonders why his 5yr wonder has failed in first year ??
fredrussell
Well-known member
I’m sorry, but I just think you’re failing to grasp one of the big benefits of LiFePo, and that is that you can do literally thousands of deep (80%) discharges of the battery and not kill it. In post #50 you say that if someone were to do a 80% discharge of a LiFePo battery a “few times” then “you could say goodbye to it”. That’s just plain incorrect and that’s why I said I didn’t think you fully understood LiFePo batteries.
In my camper van I have a 100a/h ecoworthy (cheap n cheerful) LiFePo battery. It’s been in there a year. Every day I boil my 800w kettle (through inverter) three or four times. 70 or 80 amp draw. And yet, contrary to your warning battery is absolutely fine and I have not had to “say goodbye to it”. Just out of interest what is your experience of working a LiFePo hard repeatedly? Because your views on the subject seem to fly in the face of what the other LiFePo users on here are saying.
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Refueler
Well-known member
Never made a point to get attention ??
Sure got attention hasn't it .......
Whats happening in boating is repeating early days of Li in other hobbies .....
lustyd
Well-known member
It’s the BMS that limits most lithium batteries, not the cells. Mostly for heat purposes and if the heat can be managed then the BMS can allow more current safely. Often drop in batteries are limited by internal cable sizes too, again nothing to do with the cells which will happily supply the juice.
lustyd
Well-known member
I’m not sure what your objection is. They’ve paid to have cruisers show off the tech on boats for hundreds of thousands if not millions of viewers.
It seems to me that you don’t understand modern marketing, rather than that they’re not targeting boats.
rotrax
Well-known member
We have got very used to ice cold beer, properly chilled wine, ice cream and a freezer.
Covid, when we were keeping away from possible infection, was when the Dometic 40 litre fridge/freezer earned its keep. We were at anchor or on secluded mid harbour pontoos for over two weeks at a time.
The proposed new vessel is quite spacious for a 28 footer, and as we will not be requiring more than two berths, the space saved will be used for unashamed 'luxuries' and storage. Room will not be an issue I believe.
First Mate deserves it for putting up with me all these years.....................
I foresee the biggest issue being water tank capacity. We had two huge tanks on the previous boat.
It appears from goeasy123's post #37, that a power station might be a goer. A 'drop in' easy to wire unit will suit me fine, even if a bit more expensive.
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Sea Change
Well-known member
no it isn't, the PO (note the capital) refers to phosphate.
Lithium Polymer, as you almost certainly already know, is a very high energy density chemistry generally regarded as unsuitable for boats. Good for RC models though
Sea Change
Well-known member
By the way, anybody wanting to know how LiFePO4 batteries work in real world boating applications should look up Rod Collins, who was one of the pioneers. His original bank is now something like 15 years old and has done thousands of cycles. He hasn't mollycoddled it, he's deeply discharged it regularly, using nearly 100% of the capacity. And he has had no measurable loss of capacity yet. It's pretty impressive.
Neeves
Well-known member
I could not understand how Bluetti could describe their units as portable. Having searched their website (unsuccessfully) for reference to use of their Power Stations on yacht I had a look at one of their 'Owners Manual'.
For the bigger units, with big inverters, the batteries are separate units, and you can have multiple battery units. They thus break down the device into smaller, lighter units (making them portable) though the biggest single unit, incorporating a battery, seems to be 30kgs (but they have lots of packages and I lacked the motivation to check them all). I did note that one of their optional extras is a trolley
I'm surprised they use cigarette lighter 'plugs' and very few of them. I did not see mention of Anderson plugs which are bit more robust. You would need to add more 12v and USB outlets, you can source them easily as sort of magazines or 'bus bars' than Bluetti seem to provide.
Having read the manual of one of the middle sized Bluetti units they are extremely neat. But they are made for multiple applications, one being as an emergency power supply in case of a domestic outage - so you buy options you might not need. You really do need to make an audit of what your power requirements are going to be - as having spent all that money you don't want to find it missing some key aspect. A bit like air fryers, coffee machines and the induction hob(s) which suddenly seem to be the must haves on a yacht - you have no idea what will become the next 'must have'. You could build your own, or have it built, which might allow you to future proof your ideas, adding another MPPT controller would not be difficult - but its not going to be as neat.
But its winter in the UK now (so rushing off and buying a power station does not seem to be an immediate priority) but having a 'power station' designed by the resource here, who already use Lithium, might make an interesting diversion, raising new questions and new opportunities. I don't think a 'power station' is an idea that can be rejected out of hand - it would answer the unknowns of many. Getting the specification right will save a lot of money in the first place.
Could Sea Change or Geem have put their 'power station' in a box, with the batteries separate?
Jonathan
You don't need to worry about water tanks - just add a desalinator to the equipment list and an 'instant', electric, hot water shower (readily available, cheaply, off the shelf). The existing tanks will be fine. Just include the power needed in the inverter specification.
For the bigger units, with big inverters, the batteries are separate units, and you can have multiple battery units. They thus break down the device into smaller, lighter units (making them portable) though the biggest single unit, incorporating a battery, seems to be 30kgs (but they have lots of packages and I lacked the motivation to check them all). I did note that one of their optional extras is a trolley
I'm surprised they use cigarette lighter 'plugs' and very few of them. I did not see mention of Anderson plugs which are bit more robust. You would need to add more 12v and USB outlets, you can source them easily as sort of magazines or 'bus bars' than Bluetti seem to provide.
Having read the manual of one of the middle sized Bluetti units they are extremely neat. But they are made for multiple applications, one being as an emergency power supply in case of a domestic outage - so you buy options you might not need. You really do need to make an audit of what your power requirements are going to be - as having spent all that money you don't want to find it missing some key aspect. A bit like air fryers, coffee machines and the induction hob(s) which suddenly seem to be the must haves on a yacht - you have no idea what will become the next 'must have'. You could build your own, or have it built, which might allow you to future proof your ideas, adding another MPPT controller would not be difficult - but its not going to be as neat.
But its winter in the UK now (so rushing off and buying a power station does not seem to be an immediate priority) but having a 'power station' designed by the resource here, who already use Lithium, might make an interesting diversion, raising new questions and new opportunities. I don't think a 'power station' is an idea that can be rejected out of hand - it would answer the unknowns of many. Getting the specification right will save a lot of money in the first place.
Could Sea Change or Geem have put their 'power station' in a box, with the batteries separate?
Jonathan
You don't need to worry about water tanks - just add a desalinator to the equipment list and an 'instant', electric, hot water shower (readily available, cheaply, off the shelf). The existing tanks will be fine. Just include the power needed in the inverter specification.
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Neeves
Well-known member
Neeves
Well-known member
See Sea Change reference to Rod Collins, I think he proves that long life, of LFP batteries, is quite possible. Human life is a bit more frail. Rod used to be Mainsail on CF
Here we go - I've done the hard work for you (but I misled - its not 15th Anniversary its 15th Birthday - apologies.)
Jonathan
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PaulRainbow
Well-known member
I don't need any cigarette sockets, don't use them. But, i'm still fitting them for some customers.
UPS is a function of any decent inverter. Mine has several different possibilities, i don't use them all (you couldn't, they are options), but it wouldn't make any sense to make 20 different inverters, each having one of 20 options.
Yes, it's called an inverter/charger.
On a 28ft boat ?
Tranona
Well-known member
You can achieve all that without going to 240V - people (including me) have been doing it for years. What you are describing is nothing like post#37 on his 40' boat with generator etc. That is why I highlighted what he has and does - including his use of the power station to power his on shore disco. If you want experience from others it should be in a comparable situation to yours or your anticipated plans - and nobody yet has given you this, nor are you likely to find anybody who does what you are planning who has chosen one.
Suggest you start from scratch, do a usage audit, even if it is based on theoretical usage then see what you need in the way of buffer and charging capacity to maintain that. I will be surprised if you come to the conclusion that one of those power stations is a viable solution. For example if you really have 800w of solar you probably won't even need to go to lithium to be able to run the basics of a 28' boat including your fridge/freezer. Equally if you are going independent of shorepower for 2 weeks at a time how are you going to charge your power station?
You are right about water capacity. 28' boats are not generally intended for living on for long periods - weekends and holidays are what they are designed for. Space is at a premium and water takes up a lot, particularly on modern shallow bilged designs. when downsizing you just have to accept some of the constraints and learn to live within them. Fortunately provided you can fit solar electricity much less of a constraint even using traditional technology as the constraint is primarily on generation to replace your usage.
Tranona
Well-known member
I don't have any objection. I fully understand "modern" marketing, but the fundamentals of the product mean that it has only limited attraction for small boat users. Of course there will be some cruising people who will find them useful as a supplement to their existing electrical power provision as in post#37, but that is hardly mass market. Sponsoring youtube cruisers is a cheap way of getting exposure to that fragmented fringe market. Only a tiny fraction of those millions you claim watch will ever own a boat, let alone emulate the youtubers and actually go cruising. Of those that do only another small proportions will see sufficient potential in the product to buy one.
Graham376
Well-known member
I agree. We are mooring based and have 450AH of lead acid Trojans, charged by 320W of solar in sunny location. Does what we need, with fridge running 24/7 and the usual other bits running or on charge. I see no need or benefit for us in changing to lithium.
goeasy123
Active member
On space we went for the Allpowers because all the outputs are on the same long face. We slotted it in under a cabinet with the AC and DC inputs neatly connected and out of sight on a short side.
On cost the Lithium fanboys discount all the 'spensive wiring stuff and tools you need to do a DIY install. Include that and on a like-for-like basis there's nothing in it if you wait for one of the many factory discounts that come along. But I agree with you that there are more interesting things to do than install electrical gubbins.
For programmble VSRs the all-in-one box, pictured works in our situation with a breaker and the wire that came with the powerstation connecting it to the boats buss. The other picture is my first attempt. There's a simple 200A 12VDC relay in the box actuated by the controller attached to the top. This one has more options with which you can tune to maximise the yield. The toggle switch is just to bypass the controller. The (very simple) wiring instructions come with the controller. All the components were sourced of Aliexpress. The controller can also be bought from Bimble Solar in the UK. If you have a victron MPPT solar charger the trend graph comes in handy to help max solar yield.
The charge controller in the powerstation automatically limits the current when sensing the nominal 12VDC feed so there is no danger of the lithium cooking anything in your existing system and therefore nothing to change or worry about.
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Refueler
Well-known member
no it isn't, the PO (note the capital) refers to phosphate.
Lithium Polymer, as you almost certainly already know, is a very high energy density chemistry generally regarded as unsuitable for boats. Good for RC models though
Sorry about that ... I was having a bad day and the meds kicked in and I ended up posting across two conversations and got them mixed up ....
You are correct ... LiFePo .... LiPo ... LiCdPo ..... etc are all versions with Polymer addition to aid in current flow etc. note that the O is o and no 4
PO4 is Phosphate.