Rather than change to LiFePo batteries, how about an intigrated 'Power Station?'

[Sea Change]

You don't need to live somewhere sunny for lithium to make sense. In some ways the case is even more compelling if you do most of your charging from your engine or a generator, because you don't have to spend hours getting your batteries up to float. You can cut your generator running time significantly by changing to lithium.

Lithium doesn't make sense for everybody. If you've got a small boat and are happy to replace a couple of lead acids every five years, then the one off ~£300 needed to upgrade your system to be lithium compatible is hard to justify. But for many people it's now obvious that lithium is well worth that investment.

 

[stranded]

You don't need to live somewhere sunny for lithium to make sense. In some ways the case is even more compelling if you do most of your charging from your engine or a generator, because you don't have to spend hours getting your batteries up to float. You can cut your generator running time significantly by changing to lithium.

Lithium doesn't make sense for everybody. If you've got a small boat and are happy to replace a couple of lead acids every five years, then the one off ~£300 needed to upgrade your system to be lithium compatible is hard to justify. But for many people it's now obvious that lithium is well worth that investment.

+1 We are on a mooring and one of the great benefits for us is to be able to come down for a few days in winter (as now) and not worry about what state of charge we leave the batteries in - usually not less than 40%. We’ll see over the next couple of months whether the dearth of deep winter sun will get them back up to useful levels, but that would be a problem with any chemistry - at least with LifePo I know I’m not trashing the batteries.

 

[Tranona]

I have been a very practical yachtsman, doing all my own maintainance and improvements on three yachts.

At 77 years old, a 'plug in' option for a smaller, simpler vessel is a tempting prospect.

Fortunately, if our plans come to fruition, a few quid here or there will not be a stopper. Unlike previous times!

I am a great believer in the 'KISS' principle. A Bluetti or similar appears to fit the bill for a pair of long retired oldies wishing to have reasonable facilities on board, without making stuff. A large capacity is not that important as we will be unlikely to spend all summer on a 28 footer. Marina fees will be significantly less than our current 12 metre job, so we might take more advantage of Marina facilities.

Who knows - it is not a done deal, but I find research time is rarely wasted.

Thank you for your knowlegable input - noted and filed away!

If you are a believer in KISS why are you even contemplate using such a thing on a 28' boat? Don't waste any money except for adding solar then spend a year getting to know your pattern of usage and whether your existing kit is adequate. Then you can make an informed decision about how to upgrade What are the "reasonable facilities" that need that amount of 240v power? Basic questions are your current daily usage, charging capacity and storage capacity. Are you on shorepower when you are not here?

It is interesting that none of the ads for this type of unit mentions use on a boat - it is not a market they are targeting. Look at their target markets - building sites, outdoor markets, fairs etc and you can see why they are attractive. Look at the properties of the units and then think why they might be good for a little 28' boat and you might see a big mismatch compared with the alternative ways of increasing power supply.

 

[lustyd]

It is interesting that none of the ads for this type of unit mentions use on a boat

Actually they sponsor quite a few boat channels including wildling. If that’s not advertising use on a boat I don’t know what is.

 

[Tranona]

Actually they sponsor quite a few boat channels including wildling. If that’s not advertising use on a boat I don’t know what is.

Just randomly looked at about half a dozen websites and not one had any examples of use on boats. Wildings is hardly mainstream. No advertising in mags, nor reviews that I have seen.

This is not to knock the product as it clearly has a market, but for anybody who wants serious 240v on a boat there are far better and more cost effective alternatives.

 

[Neeves]

Thing is, I doubt the majority who may be contemplating switching to LifePo do so because they have a sudden irresistible urge to run a washing machine, induction hobs, kettles, bread makers, Nav lights radar, autohelm, all at the same time.

My motivation to switch was to have safer, smaller, lighter batteries that are, within their parameters, much more forgiving of not being fully charged. When it turned out I could get all of that while almost doubling usable capacity for no more money than a like for like AGM replacement, it was a no-brainer. We do now use an electric kettle, Nespresso machine, multi cooker, and in the summer, immersion heater. But if the sun doesn’t shine we don’t have to, and we still have a very nice life when aboard, just as we did before, adapting to what we have.

I suspect you rationalise your own fear and ignorance of lithium through your oft repeated assertion that it necessarily involves a wholesale change in onboard lifestyle. It doesn’t need to do that at all to still make a lot of sense for a lot of people.

All very true.

I understand that you have kept gas for the galley.

I also understand that you did have a change in life style, electric kettle, Nespresso machine, multi cooker.

The problem is that you do find that the Lithium opens new opportunities you had not realised would be possible but find you don't have the battery resource. So you want to add more new batteries. The old, they will still have a years of life left in them, will have a different charging regime from the new batteries. Even if you buy the same brand they will be from different batches possibly made with different cells and different BMS. Your solar management system will have great difficulty in catering for the old and new banks and this might necessitate new solar controllers and circuits than simply adding a new battery.

Better to over resource from the outset. It seems you did not do this and need the back ups when the sun does not shine.

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

The “power stations” are compact enclosures that house numerous proprietary components. One notable consideration is that any malfunction would be challenging, if not impossible, to rectify. In contrast, the more conventional modular approach employs lithium batteries, inverters, solar controllers, and other components that can be individually replaced. This modular design offers a significant advantage, particularly in marine environments where reliability and flexibility are paramount.

 

[Neeves]

The “power stations” are compact enclosures that house numerous proprietary components. One notable consideration is that any malfunction would be challenging, if not impossible, to rectify. In contrast, the more conventional modular approach employs lithium batteries, inverters, solar controllers, and other components that can be individually replaced. This modular design offers a significant advantage, particularly in marine environments where reliability and flexibility are paramount.

Are you sure these Power Stations house numerous proprietary components and if they do, do you know these components are difficult to replace. Is there any history suggesting these units are not reliable. Are you sure they are impossible to rectify - courier the failed component, plug in....?

25 years ago we had a Victron charger/inverter from new that had problems with one specific circuit board. Victron sent us a replacement circuit board, which failed, and then another. At that time there was no support for Victron in Australia, everything came via their distributor in NZ. We were given specific instructions on how to replace. It was very simple, remove old circuit board plug in new. It was eventually all sorted out.... by us.

Why would it be any more difficult with one of these Power Stations.

These power stations are being used across a huge swathe of the leisure market/industry - every caravan, 4x4 off road distributor carries them - the support should (it might not) be there. Anything focussed at marine is a niche market, less support. I go to camping/4x4 off road shows and the big boat shows (because 'stuff' at caravan shows is usable in a yacht). Lithium is everywhere for caravans, trailers and 4x4s - lithium at boat shows, certainly in Oz, is noticeable by its total absence. New yachts in Australia are being sold with lead batteries, caravans are full of Lithium and Lithium compatible components. Lithium is mainstream for mobile homes, caravans - its not mainstream, yet, for yachts (except for some on YBW ).

Jonathan

 

[stranded]

All very true.

I understand that you have kept gas for the galley.

I also understand that you did have a change in life style, electric kettle, Nespresso machine, multi cooker.

The problem is that you do find that the Lithium opens new opportunities you had not realised would be possible but find you don't have the battery resource. So you want to add more new batteries. The old, they will still have a years of life left in them, will have a different charging regime from the new batteries. Even if you buy the same brand they will be from different batches possibly made with different cells and different BMS. Your solar management system will have great difficulty in catering for the old and new banks and this might necessitate new solar controllers and circuits than simply adding a new battery.

Better to over resource from the outset. It seems you did not do this and need the back ups when the sun does not shine.

Jonathan

No, you fail to understand. I have indeed over-resourced - double what I had, which was enough. So I use the excess. Because I can. If weather conditions do not cooperate, I carry on as before - still with enough. It’s a mixed energy economy. It does not have to be all or nothing.

 

[noelex]

Certainly, the replacement of individual components in these systems will be significantly more challenging compared to a conventional yacht system with separate inverters, MPPT controllers, battery chargers, BMS, USB sockets, and so on. Physically compatible components for the “power station” enclosure will be difficult, if not impossible, to find.

In most instances, repairs by individuals other than the manufacturer will be impractical. Conversely, replacing these components in a conventional yacht electrical system is relatively straightforward, updated models or even components from alternative suppliers are generally feasible.

Regrettably, electrical component failures, such as MPPT controllers and inverters, are not uncommon in the marine environment. The pursuit of the smallest form factor and minimum weight necessary for a successful “power station” may exacerbate these issues.

While the inability to repair or replace individual components should not be the sole criterion for dismissing these products, it should be considered alongside the substantial price when evaluating their suitability as the optimal choice.

 

[rotrax]

If you are a believer in KISS why are you even contemplate using such a thing on a 28' boat? Don't waste any money except for adding solar then spend a year getting to know your pattern of usage and whether your existing kit is adequate. Then you can make an informed decision about how to upgrade What are the "reasonable facilities" that need that amount of 240v power? Basic questions are your current daily usage, charging capacity and storage capacity. Are you on shorepower when you are not here?

It is interesting that none of the ads for this type of unit mentions use on a boat - it is not a market they are targeting. Look at their target markets - building sites, outdoor markets, fairs etc and you can see why they are attractive. Look at the properties of the units and then think why they might be good for a little 28' boat and you might see a big mismatch compared with the alternative ways of increasing power supply.

I am contemplating it because it is a self contained unit. I dont see many downsides. I shall be fitting Solar, probably about 300W. The contemplated vessel has only 200AH of lead acid. A 'pattern of useage' is, of course, a sensible thing to do, but my yachting experience leads me to believe I can make a fairly accurate assesment. We currently have a yacht with 440AH of AGM house bank, 400W of Solar and a Westerbeke 8KW genset. We can, with that vessel, be profligate with electricity use. The batteries have only ever been charged by Solar or the engine alternator on that boat during the last three years.

So far the only owner of such a unit was the owner of a Power Cat who had a medium Bluetti unit. She was a great fan. She did have some experience, having lived and sailed extensively in NZ and the Pacific Islands.

I am aware that I could build the equivilent cheaper as a component of the proposed vessels battery/charging system. But, our fixed costs are to be far, far less when we get a smaller vessel. The cost is not a stopper, nor is the time it might last. At our age, every day is a bonus!

Being able to fix a box securely, supply the Solar current for charging and an AC input when on shore power is pretty simple when compared to the cheaper 'build your own' option.

So far, no replies from anyone with direct experience. I remain hopeful...........................

Thanks for the interest shown, it is appreciated.

 

[noelex]

An alternative to a commercial “power station” (or “solar generator”) is the DIY approach. Essentially, this entails assembling the necessary components, such as lithium batteries, inverters, MPPT controllers, and so on, within a designated enclosure.

One of the primary advantages of this approach is its flexibility. It allows for customisation based on specific requirements and enables the replacement of components in the future if necessary due to failures or changes in operational needs.

An option worth considering.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Are you sure these Power Stations house numerous proprietary components and if they do, do you know these components are difficult to replace. Is there any history suggesting these units are not reliable. Are you sure they are impossible to rectify - courier the failed component, plug in....?

Full of proprietary components, nothing else will fit. The manufacturers even state the battery pack cannot be replaced by the user and must be returned to them.

It doesn't help anybody when you keep posting random misinformation regarding a subject you clearly have little to no understanding of.

 

[jakew009]

The more dreadful lithium conversions I see on boats the more I think that these all in one things are maybe not a bad idea for 'normal' people.

At least you are getting a box of components that has been designed by someone with half a clue, rather than the typical random drop in battery chucked under a seat with an offcut of flymo power cable linking it to the existing battery they couldn't be bothered to remove.

 

[rotrax]

An alternative to a commercial “power station” (or “solar generator”) is the DIY approach. Essentially, this entails assembling the necessary components, such as lithium batteries, inverters, MPPT controllers, and so on, within a designated enclosure.

One of the primary advantages of this approach is its flexibility. It allows for customisation based on specific requirements and enables the replacement of components in the future if necessary due to failures or changes in operational needs.

An option worth considering.

I have considered that approach, but am exploring the 'all in one, ready to go' option.

Still no comment based on direct experience from a user. Too new to the market perhaps. They might go the way of the Methanol powered Fuel Cell's that never caught on.

Perhaps I might be the first to report if I jump that way...................................

 

[Tranona]

I am contemplating it because it is a self contained unit. I dont see many downsides. I shall be fitting Solar, probably about 300W. The contemplated vessel has only 200AH of lead acid. A 'pattern of useage' is, of course, a sensible thing to do, but my yachting experience leads me to believe I can make a fairly accurate assesment. We currently have a yacht with 440AH of AGM house bank, 400W of Solar and a Westerbeke 8KW genset. We can, with that vessel, be profligate with electricity use. The batteries have only ever been charged by Solar or the engine alternator on that boat during the last three years.

So far the only owner of such a unit was the owner of a Power Cat who had a medium Bluetti unit. She was a great fan. She did have some experience, having lived and sailed extensively in NZ and the Pacific Islands.

I am aware that I could build the equivilent cheaper as a component of the proposed vessels battery/charging system. But, our fixed costs are to be far, far less when we get a smaller vessel. The cost is not a stopper, nor is the time it might last. At our age, every day is a bonus!

Being able to fix a box securely, supply the Solar current for charging and an AC input when on shore power is pretty simple when compared to the cheaper 'build your own' option.

So far, no replies from anyone with direct experience. I remain hopeful...........................

Thanks for the interest shown, it is appreciated.

It is not the properties of the units I am questioning it is there relevance to (I assume) coastal cruising in a 28' boat. 200Ah is a typical capacity for such a boat and is more than adequate for most peoples' use, including a fridge if you have a means of charging in addition to your engine/alternator such as solar or shorepower to keep the battery fully charged when you are not using the boat. 300W is a lot of solar that can support a bigger bank of either more LA/AGM or if space is a constraint lithium. The only thing that one of these packs adds is independent 240v that would be difficult to arrange otherwise on such a small boat. This is very different from your existing boat.

Just because somebody else with a very different boat and probably pattern of usage has one does not necessarily mean that it is suitable for your use. Back to the basic question of what do you see as inadequate in your current set up and how will one of these solve it?

I don't think you will get any direct experience for the simple reason that these products are not appropriate for small boat use. There are much better solutions if you want to increase your electrical capacity for domestic use. This is perhaps why as I suggested earlier none of the makers seem to target this market.

 

[goeasy123]

Here you go. 'direct experience'....

We have a 20 year old boat with an old and reliable LA set up on a 40ft S/V.... 460W solar, 420Ah 12 V batteries and 1500W inverter. We added an Allpowers R2500 that's connected to the boats buss through a programmable VSR set to 14.3V on, 12.7V off and an on delay. It doubles our available capacity, gives us a 2500w inverter, took 30 minutes to install with very little electrical skills or knowledge. It effectively more than doubles the solar capacity and, with a manufacture's deal was was a no-brainer cost compared to a DIY solution. It comes with a 5 year warranty, as do all the major brands. So the issue of component failure and replaceablity in hardly relevant and I can't see what you would ever want to upgrade.

With the VSR (£14 off ebay) we need no additional solar and no shore power connection. Any time any charging circuit is working and the LA is in float the powerstation will charge. Charging sources are engine alternator, existing solar and shorepower. It's fit and forget/maintenance free, requires no modification to the existing system and no issues with insurance companies.

It runs a Starlink Mini directly of the 100w USB C port, an espresso machine, toaster, kettle and induction hob (two at a time) as well as charging all the plug-in shit you gotta carry about with you these days. We take it off the boat in the dinghy to run and 1500W 240VAC hookah. Also useful for BBQ's and amp and PA set up for band..

The only mistake we made was going for a R3500. ***king heavy. Took to blokes to lift it, but Allpowers swapped it out without issue. We have friends that have done the same with Anker 767's and Ecoflows.

Try it ...and if you don't like it stick it on ebay.

 

[lustyd]

Wildings is hardly mainstream

I’m not going to list them for you but Bluetti has sponsored loads of sailing channels big and small.

 

[rotrax]

Here you go. 'direct experience'....

We have a 20 year old boat with an old and reliable LA set up on a 40ft S/V.... 460W solar, 420Ah 12 V batteries and 1500W inverter. We added an Allpowers R2500 that's connected to the boats buss through a programmable VSR set to 14.3V on, 12.7V off and an on delay. It doubles our available capacity, gives us a 2500w inverter, took 30 minutes to install with very little electrical skills or knowledge. It effectively more than doubles the solar capacity and, with a manufacture's deal was was a no-brainer cost compared to a DIY solution. It comes with a 5 year warranty, as do all the major brands. So the issue of component failure and replaceablity in hardly relevant and I can't see what you would ever want to upgrade.

With the VSR (£14 off ebay) we need no additional solar and no shore power connection. Any time any charging circuit is working and the LA is in float the powerstation will charge. Charging sources are engine alternator, existing solar and shorepower. It's fit and forget/maintenance free, requires no modification to the existing system and no issues with insurance companies.

It runs a Starlink Mini directly of the 100w USB C port, an espresso machine, toaster, kettle and induction hob (two at a time) as well as charging all the plug-in shit you gotta carry about with you these days. We take it off the boat in the dinghy to run and 1500W 240VAC hookah. Also useful for BBQ's and amp and PA set up for band..

The only mistake we made was going for a R3500. ***king heavy. Took to blokes to lift it, but Allpowers swapped it out without issue. We have friends that have done the same with Anker 767's and Ecoflows.

Try it ...and if you don't like it stick it on ebay.

Thank you - at last, a report from a user!

Your experience is, as I hoped, positive. After looking at the available units, choice dictated by space and weight and required capacity, there is a wide selection of makes to choose from.

The insurance company is an issue I had in mind too.

Thank you again, much appreciated.

Cost is not a problem. Going sailing instead of making stuff is. At my time of life, as with many others on here, funerals are a more common visit than weddings. I am aware of my own mortality and enjoying the time left is of paramount importance.

It will be interesting using one and letting the forum know how we fare with it.

If, of course, our proposed boat change works out OK. It looks good at the moment.

Fingers crossed...........................

 

[Neeves]

I’m not going to list them for you but Bluetti has sponsored loads of sailing channels big and small.

Google "Bluetti Sailing" and the first page lists 10 You Tube videos, go to the second page and the search loses focus and you get You Tube videos on sailing and use in 'vans'.

Bluetti may, or may not, have sponsored any of the videos but there is no mention of sailing, that I could find, on the website and no mention of 'independent' or sponsored videos either.

They are slow at coming forward .

In Australia they have one distributor (BCF), listed on the website, that has a part marine focus (mostly small runabouts), as well as a focus on camping and fishing. They really don't appear to rate the opportunity in sailing very highly.

Jonathan