jamie N
Well-known member
With respect to the OP, all of us are possibly reminded of never letting the boat take you anywhere that your brain didn't get to 5 minutes earlier.
A disaster
- Thread starter Norv
- Start date
dunedin
Well-known member
OP should not feel too bad about his learning experience. Perhaps it was a bit ambitious in terms of weather forecast (they are informed guesses, and not an upper limit on wind strength).
But I suspect most of us on here have had similar or more self induced c### ups in our time - and continue to do so occasionally.
We had a fairly similar experience in a lock with strong wind and inexperienced (or unhelpful) lock keeper refusing to take our stern rope but insisting on the bow rope - whereas it would have been easy to control the bow with bow thruster, it was very difficult to control the stern when stopped and strong stern/cross wind.
Incidentally, may vary by location, but most locks we have been in it is the boat which passes its ropes, rather than the lock keeper passing fixed ropes
But I suspect most of us on here have had similar or more self induced c### ups in our time - and continue to do so occasionally.
We had a fairly similar experience in a lock with strong wind and inexperienced (or unhelpful) lock keeper refusing to take our stern rope but insisting on the bow rope - whereas it would have been easy to control the bow with bow thruster, it was very difficult to control the stern when stopped and strong stern/cross wind.
Incidentally, may vary by location, but most locks we have been in it is the boat which passes its ropes, rather than the lock keeper passing fixed ropes
Last edited:
pessimist
Well-known member
Afraid I have to agree with others. Your responsibility and yours alone to make the decision to go. Always difficult to pull out, especially when there are external pressures to go. We've all been there and all cocked it up. Think of boating as staggering from one cockup to the next. FWIW our boat name is Snafu II..........?
dunedin
Well-known member
….. says the user named PESSIMIST
SailingDog
Well-known member
Not sure I agree, we lock out all the time currently, always get 2 lines dropped, stern one 1st.
The skipper is responsible for the vessel under his command ultimately. Controlling two external agents one the skipper of another vessel and one the lock master on a lousy day is like herding cats.
There would be pressure on the marina to have boats cleared prior to dredging commencing eg penalties. They also have a duty of care to berth holders. In different circumstances I was told my vessel had to be moved, I had no crew, poor conditions I told them if they needed it moving so badly they could move it with their tug at their risk, they declined and I moved it 3 days later.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Regarding the damage- One must point out that your boat was damaged because of faulty throttle & it seems most of the problems were caused by that, plus your inexperience. Not helped by the lack of anyone to give sympathetic assistance. But one can not start blaming others for that.
However, I have been through Grimsby lock 4 times & find the lock keepers about the same as the rest of Grimsby-- Pretty Grim. . So I can understand how you can feel that the lock keeper may well have been unhelpful.
They normally dredge by raking to stir the mud then open the gates to let out the water, complete with mud, at a rush. So they could work round you. They worked round me.
The best time to leave for someone inexperienced, is at freeflow. If the water is low the lines drop down near vertical & not at an angle, so the boat will always shear about. It may be that the lock keeper was expecting you to reverse hard while the water level was dropping. One cannot just cleat the lines. One needs to take a turn & release them as the baot drops because of the vertical drop unlike an angled line. So leaving at low tide is not advisable as the line is long & the drop can be quick.. Plus, from memory, there is not a lot of depth outside at low water. I may be wrong on that, it has been some time.
This lock needs slightly different work than the usual lock. Mid cleats really do little to help because the lines are vertical as the boat drops.
On one occasion I found that the keeper made no allowance for the fact I was single handed at 01-00 hours in pitch black & the water on entry was near LW. I was running back & forth trying to adjust the lines but as they were vertical I gave up as the boat just sheared about. I just held the boat on the engine 3 ft from the wall. Another SH yacht, that followed me in, did the same. It is not easy to find the entrance without a plotter or GPS, at night first time round
You mention the strong wind but once the gates are shut the wind will have less effect. So a few gusts are nothing in the grand scheme of things.
However, I have been through Grimsby lock 4 times & find the lock keepers about the same as the rest of Grimsby-- Pretty Grim.
. So I can understand how you can feel that the lock keeper may well have been unhelpful.They normally dredge by raking to stir the mud then open the gates to let out the water, complete with mud, at a rush. So they could work round you. They worked round me.
The best time to leave for someone inexperienced, is at freeflow. If the water is low the lines drop down near vertical & not at an angle, so the boat will always shear about. It may be that the lock keeper was expecting you to reverse hard while the water level was dropping. One cannot just cleat the lines. One needs to take a turn & release them as the baot drops because of the vertical drop unlike an angled line. So leaving at low tide is not advisable as the line is long & the drop can be quick.. Plus, from memory, there is not a lot of depth outside at low water. I may be wrong on that, it has been some time.
This lock needs slightly different work than the usual lock. Mid cleats really do little to help because the lines are vertical as the boat drops.
On one occasion I found that the keeper made no allowance for the fact I was single handed at 01-00 hours in pitch black & the water on entry was near LW. I was running back & forth trying to adjust the lines but as they were vertical I gave up as the boat just sheared about. I just held the boat on the engine 3 ft from the wall. Another SH yacht, that followed me in, did the same. It is not easy to find the entrance without a plotter or GPS, at night first time round
You mention the strong wind but once the gates are shut the wind will have less effect. So a few gusts are nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Last edited:
trythalljohn
New member
Detail of how things unfolded apart, never let anyone tell you you have to go to sea. You are skipper, it is your decision.
PhillM
Well-known member
Yes, that’s excatly the spirit. Even if the damage is worse it’s to a boat and not people.
roaringgirl
Well-known member
If you were using your engine and rudder to hold the stern against the side in the manner I described, you should have stayed in forward gear. You must have switched to reverse for it to get jammed there - why did you do that? It also sounds like your crew was holding onto the line instead of getting it onto a cleat on the boat - this is never a good idea except on tiny boats.
To be clear - the method is:
1. Get a line from a cleat on your boat (midships or bow) to a strongpoint on the shore behind the middle of your boat.
2. Motor gently forwards steering to push the bow away from the dock (and the stern in towards it)
3. Once the side of the boat is resting against the dock, adjust the throttle and rudder angle to hold the stern in while you put on more lines at your leisure.
I suffered a gear cable failure when docking once, the scene ended with my bow in the cockpit of a visiting German boat, and their ensign pole snapped, with the flagging hanging limply in the water. It was not my finest hour. Ever since that moment, I have always checked I can get fwd and reverse gear before: lifting the anchor, dropping the anchor, leaving a berth, entering a harbour, leaving a mooring, picking up a mooring. I also check the rudder movement - I once had to stop the crew in the middle of letting the mooring go when I discovered the rudder was jammed. It turned out to be jammed with hard growth from sitting in quarantine for 10 days!
To be clear - the method is:
1. Get a line from a cleat on your boat (midships or bow) to a strongpoint on the shore behind the middle of your boat.
2. Motor gently forwards steering to push the bow away from the dock (and the stern in towards it)
3. Once the side of the boat is resting against the dock, adjust the throttle and rudder angle to hold the stern in while you put on more lines at your leisure.
I suffered a gear cable failure when docking once, the scene ended with my bow in the cockpit of a visiting German boat, and their ensign pole snapped, with the flagging hanging limply in the water. It was not my finest hour. Ever since that moment, I have always checked I can get fwd and reverse gear before: lifting the anchor, dropping the anchor, leaving a berth, entering a harbour, leaving a mooring, picking up a mooring. I also check the rudder movement - I once had to stop the crew in the middle of letting the mooring go when I discovered the rudder was jammed. It turned out to be jammed with hard growth from sitting in quarantine for 10 days!
Daydream believer
Well-known member
We had a group cruise to Shotley this year & some of the boats made a right mess of the lock entry with wind up the chuff. A couple getting stuck 45 degrees across the lock.
It was all discussed over beer & wine in the cockpit of one of the boats. I had taken pictures of the antics which created some mirth, followed by serious discussion.It was generally agreed that tying the bow was NOT the right solution . The 2 that did it the best tied the stern & motored gently against the lines. The bow then stayed in & could be secured afterwards. With all due respect I feel that with a modern AWB that method you describe is not suitable. On my boat, a spring line does not hold the stern in, regardless of what I do with the rudder. Prop wash decides if the stern goes in or out. It did not work for a Centaur either.
But to each his own & everyone has to find a system that works best for them as each boat is different. having found it then stick to it & disregard the armchair sailors. ?
roaringgirl
Well-known member
We had a group cruise to Shotley this year & some of the boats made a right mess of the lock entry with wind up the chuff. A couple getting stuck 45 degrees across the lock.
It was generally agreed that tying the bow was NOT the right solution . The 2 that did it the best tied the stern & motored gently against the lines. The bow then stayed in & could be secured afterwards. With all due respect I feel that with a modern AWB that method you describe is not suitable. On my boat, a spring line does not hold the stern in, regardless of what I do with the rudder. Prop wash decides if the stern goes in or out. It did not work for a Centaur either.
But to each his own & everyone has to find a system that works best for them as each boat is different. having found it then stick to it & disregard the armchair sailors.
I think I may have been misunderstood - the bow spring doesn't hold the stern in. The bow (I prefer midships) spring led aft on the dock stops the boat going forwards and pulls the bow towards the dock as you motor forwards; the prop wash goes over the rudder, if you try to steer the bow *away* from the dock, the propwash over the rudder will push the stern sideways against the dock.
I would love an armchair on my ketch, but my family who lives on board with me would object, and it would probably be impractical on the long ocean crossings.
Poignard
Well-known member
Does the lock at Grimsby have chains at intervals hanging down its sides around which a line can be passed, or is one entirely dependent on the lock keeper knowing what needs to be done to secure the boat safely? Or if he doesn't know, at least his being willing to do what he is asked.
Last edited:
oldgit
Well-known member
A good boating rule which if ignored or forgotten about can lead to some frank exchange of views and some interesting arrivals.
Usually involving fenders and wondering where the hell all the mooring ropes have been hidden along with the boathook.
It does however provide entertainment for adjacent boaters, who of course would never allow such a situation to develop.
Stemar
Well-known member
Not this week, anyway. Next week, who knows whose turn it is to provide the entertainment?
The OP's learned a few things, and will be better equipped mentally to deal with that lock and that weather (by going to the pub instead?) next time.
ashtead
Well-known member
As a aside I had heard in France lock keepers are given a tip/pourboire by motorboats to gain a degree of civility from the lock staff? Perhaps not best practice but just saying.
Momac
Well-known member
No chains
They throw you a rope or two from the side with the lock keepers building (the West side) .We have only penned in at Grimsby once and received ropes bow and stern. We usually go at free flow as there is then no charge. The boat that penned in with us had to hover in the middle with no ropes.
Not a great experience but we survived. They don't seem to be sympathetic to pleasure craft .
It sounds like the OP was penning out so going down .
In that case a rope on the bow only is not going to work. The flow due to leakage through the gates will push the stern out. If the crew pulls on the rope at the bow the stern will be pulled out .
This is without any consideration for wind.
The wind in a lock can be different to the wind outside as the wind can bounce off the walls doing all sorts of unpredictable things.
I have done more locks than a few and admit to getting it wrong more than once in the early days .
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Does not happen. The bow is thinner than the rest of the boat and, therefore, any foreward motion pulling on the bow rope automatically pulls the bow in & the stern out. Regardless of rudder. The harder one motors to get authority of water movement over the rudder the more the bow pulls in & that more the stern pulls out.I think I may have been misunderstood - the bow spring doesn't hold the stern in. The bow (I prefer midships) spring led aft on the dock stops the boat going forwards and pulls the bow towards the dock as you motor forwards; the prop wash goes over the rudder, if you try to steer the bow *away* from the dock, the propwash over the rudder will push the stern sideways against the dock.
I would love an armchair on my ketch, but my family who lives on board with me would object, and it would probably be impractical on the long ocean crossings.
But as I said , to each his own & what works for one did not work for any of the boats in the lock at Shotley & many I have watched who have made the same mistake.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
You can say that again. I heard a yacht calling repeatedly to the lock keeper & he just ignored him. On my first visit, he made the other yacht yacht & myself wait an 90 mins to go through, when there was ample water. He just kept leaving the gates open & letting wind farm boats in even though he could have let us go through in the intervals between the windfarm boats arrivals.
Seemed to deliberately leave us circling outside.
The last time I came out on freeflow to avoid having to deal with the lock keepers. I just ignored the signals & went through when I was ready. I called on VHF said what I was doing & did not wait for a reply. Have not been back since. Next time I will go to Hull.
Wansworth
Well-known member
During my dalliance in the coasting trade Icame across dock workers in all their forms and there are all kinds one was so stupid he untied his end of the mooringropein the lock and threwit on board ….a very nice length of mooring line ?
Spirit (of Glenans)
Well-known member
If using just one line, plus engine and rudder, to hold a boat parallel with a wall, it will only work satisfactorily if attached to a cleat or other strong point amidships. The boat will then pivot about its widest part, which is attached to the wall, with the engine and rudder pushing the stern in and hence the bow will swing out. This will work better on older designs of yacht, where the widest part is amidships, but is a little more difficult on modern "wedge-shaped" designs where more engine revs are required, or the line should be attached a little further aft. The only way I can logically see it working with a line secured at the bow is with a long straight type of hull, such as a narrowboat. Speaking of which; last night I saw on tv the spectacle of Gyles Brandreth running along a dock, hanging onto the bowline of a narrowboat, instead of securing it to a cleat?
