36ft sailboat, anchoring not going well

[westernman]

Please don't be offended but, in terms of advice, to an inexperienced boater, this is a just a waste of time. How in the name of God does he control this. Most of the time you can't even see the anchor and, even if you could, you certainly can't control the momentum of a 10/15/20 tonne boat so precisely. Anchoring is not a science. It's a matter of developing a technique, through experience, that suits you, your boat, and your anchor, and being able to tweak or vary it to suit the type of seabed you're encountering. The OP has lost confidence in himself but he'll overcome that and develop a method that suits him.

The important thing for a beginner to realise, is that the initial digging in needs to happen very very slowly. Particularly for an old style anchor. 0.01 knots is may be a bit of an exaggeration. But 1 knot is definitely way too fast for a CQR on a hard substrate.

When my boat was new to me, I had difficultly getting the anchor to set at all. I was taking 5/6 attempts to get it to set.
Now in the same place, I get it set first time every time.

The key is that I was going just a little bit too fast. I was backing down as I had learnt on the RYA courses. It needed to be slower.

 

[Tranona]

I think .01 knot (but I'm probably wrong) which in the grand scheme of things is too small to measure and certainly too small to control.

Jonathan

Beat me to it. That is what I got after some basic pressing of buttons.

 

[westernman]

Beat me to it. That is what I got after some basic pressing of buttons.

I was unaware we had so many nerds on here.....

 

[PeterWright]

One in inch in 5 seconds

What's that in knots?

Multiply by 12 and it's l ft. per minute or 60 ft. per hour, so 60/6080 nautical miles per hour or knots, i.e. 0.01 kts., no buttons needed.

 

[Irish Rover]

When my boat was new to me, I had difficultly getting the anchor to set at all. I was taking 5/6 attempts to get it to set.
Now in the same place, I get it set first time every time.

And so say all of us, if we're honest. As I've said already the OP just needs a bit of self confidence to find the way that suits him best and we're not helping if we get too technical or scientific in our advice.

 

[dunedin]

I've just anchored in a small bay where my wife and I come almost every day to swim, snorkel and padlleboard. It's flat calm as it has been early morning every day for the last 10 or so days. After making a slow 360⁰ turn I dropped the anchor in 2.2M followed by 10M of chain. The anchor just sat there on It's side, with the chain balled up nearby. I waited 10 minutes and nothing changed, with the boat sitting over the anchor and the chain. I'm pretty sure it would stay like that, if I left it so, until the breeze gets up a bit, probably in around 2 hours.
I then put one of the engines in reverse and took it out as soon as I saw the chain starting to straighten. The chain extended fully but the anchor didn't budge - still on It's side. I then put both engines in reverse at min revs. The anchor sat up and moved in the direction of pull between 50 and 100cm. I applied more revs and the anchor dug in nicely.
Apart from waiting 10 min that almost replicates what I do all the time and it's rarely failed me. But, everyone to their own. Safe sailing.

Yes, in summary many of us use a trickle of engined reverse to lay out the chain and start to dig the anchor in.
But definitely don’t set off at hard reverse too soon, as some seem to have assumed the OP is doing (without any specific evidence)

 

[Zing]

... The Delta is probably the most common anchor used in the area as just about all the charter boats use it....

Well if that doesn't tell you all you need to know I don't know what does.

 

[Tranona]

Well if that doesn't tell you all you need to know I don't know what does.

Yes, by observation (if you have spent the same time in that area as I have) it tells you that thousands manage to anchor perfectly satisfactorily with the anchors provided on their boats. If you doubt it just read the OPs original posts where he comments that others around him had no problems and most will have the standard plough or fluke type anchors.

 

[nestawayboats]

A "better" anchor might help in the sense that it should dig in more easily and have better holding power, giving one more margin for error. So if you then back down on it harder or faster or with less scope than ideal - or it's non-ideal anchoring substrate - it may still bite where the "worse" anchor would have skipped merrily along the bottom.

Different anchors work better in different seabeds for sure. Others here have more experience in the Med, I've only ever used whatever came with various charter boats out there... can't remember but yes most probably a Delta. They do seem to be the default anchor with a lot of production boats, possibly to do with cost and/or bow roller storage convenience.

As liveaboards doing an Atlantic circuit 20 years ago we struggled with a bit over-size CQR, and never looked back after swapping one day to what had been our kedge Fortress (surprisingly light but massive fluke area). The Fortress was a comparative delight to haul up too, no windlass (we were young!). As a result of promoting the Fortress forward we also found out we quite liked what had been the back-up kedge, a tiny old Bruce - which you could physically throw (again, we were young!) quite a long way. So we relegated the CQR to the bilges but were glad we'd kept it when eventually one of the Fortress flukes bent (which to be fair they replaced at no cost, as per their warranty) off Venezuela somewhere...

More recently in the Solent, after occasional mixed results with a Delta, and losing that to internal corrosion on a (inherited-with-that-boat) swivel (of the type I now know never to fit) we found its replacement - a similar-weight Rocna - was better. But still absolutely useless with a Coke can stuck on the end of it!

 

[noelex]

Yes, by observation (if you have spent the same time in that area as I have) it tells you that thousands manage to anchor perfectly satisfactorily with the anchors provided on their boats.

Yep, perfectly satisfactory

 

[Roberto]

Yep, perfectly satisfactory


View attachment 178111

Maybe it's the OP

 

[Tranona]

Yep, perfectly satisfactory


View attachment 178111

I have no doubt you can find photos of all kinds of anchors dragging.

The point I was making is that the vast majority of people, and particularly in the area where the OP is sailing find the Delta and indeed many other "old" style anchors perfectly satisfactory for the type of sailing and anchoring they do. Of course they can be improved upon, but despite NG anchors having been on the market for 20 years, they are still in a minority. High cost might have something to do with it, but sailors (and charter boat owners) are mostly rational people and presumably do not see a big enough problem or additional benefit to justify buying one.

 

[Refueler]

I have no doubt you can find photos of all kinds of anchors dragging.

The point I was making is that the vast majority of people, and particularly in the area where the OP is sailing find the Delta and indeed many other "old" style anchors perfectly satisfactory for the type of sailing and anchoring they do. Of course they can be improved upon, but despite NG anchors having been on the market for 20 years, they are still in a minority. High cost might have something to do with it, but sailors (and charter boat owners) are mostly rational people and presumably do not see a big enough problem or additional benefit to justify buying one.

I would add - that owners get into ways of using whatever anchor they have ... to achieve desired result.

For all my previous cruising of the Swedish islands ... I used a Fishermans as my kedge (stern) anchor when bow to the rocks / trees. It worked fine. In fact - it held so well - I used to curse it when retrieving !

TBH - I am not looking fwd to using the anchor on the 38 ... its a large Bruce in the transom locker ... short chain about 2 - 3m and then Ankolina reel. Boat has been Baltic all her life - so set up for bow to mooring.... kedge out stern. She has no stem roller or fitting for bow anchoring.

 

[Neeves]

Multiply by 12 and it's l ft. per minute or 60 ft. per hour, so 60/6080 nautical miles per hour or knots, i.e. 0.01 kts., no buttons needed.

That's how I did it, the use of 12 was the part that made it simple. But I had to check to ensure the decimal place was correct - and then I still had doubts it was so small.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I have no doubt you can find photos of all kinds of anchors dragging.

If you want to make a point you obviously take pictures of anchors that have dragged, no matter the reason nor experience of the operator. Photos don't lie but the choice of picture can easily be used to mislead - it you want to make a point.

There is no peer review of the pictures chosen.

Maybe it's the OP

Maybe....

Here in Oz the most common anchor would be the CQR, Bruce or Delta and copies of. Though how many use their anchor in anger is an unknown. The newer anchors Rocna (hardly new ), Excel, Supreme are seen on the bow rollers of yachts in marinas (whose owners have more disposable income than the majority) - cost may be an issue. It will be interesting to see where the Epsilon fits.

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

On the thread below I posted a photo of every anchor I observed over an 18 month period. There was no selective editing. There are hundreds of images with contributions from many cruisers. Very few show convex plough anchors, such as the Delta, performing anywhere near as well as new generation models in the same anchorage.

This is not some conspiracy. The Delta struggles in some difficult substrates such as hard sand. The difference is not subtle.

Photos of Anchors Setting - Page 129 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

 

[Tranona]

On the thread below I posted a photo of every anchor I observed over an 18 month period. There was no selective editing. There are hundreds of images with contributions from many cruisers. Very few show convex plough anchors, such as the Delta, performing anywhere near as well as new generation models in the same anchorage.

This is not some conspiracy. The Delta struggles in some difficult substrates such as hard sand. The difference is not subtle.

Photos of Anchors Setting - Page 129 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

I am not questioning that other anchors perform better than the Delta, just saying that in the real world the Delta is very popular and fitted as standard by many European mass producers. Owners seem satisfied with the performance despite tests showing its limitations. If there really was failure on a mass scale then we would see boats being lost, or widespread replacement by better anchors - but that does not seem to be happening.

 

[Neeves]

On the thread below I posted a photo of every anchor I observed over an 18 month period. There was no selective editing. There are hundreds of images with contributions from many cruisers. Very few show convex plough anchors, such as the Delta, performing anywhere near as well as new generation models in the same anchorage.

This is not some conspiracy. The Delta struggles in some difficult substrates such as hard sand. The difference is not subtle.

Photos of Anchors Setting - Page 129 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

In the same thread of yours you champion the Mantus, M1. You use a 50kg Mantus M1 on your current yacht yet for that size of yacht Rocna would recommend a 33kg version. This disparity of 'weight' alone raises questions.

I have posted a link to an article from Practical Sailor authored by Darrell Nicholson who has been editor of Practical Sailor for decades and is a highly respected mariner. The article suggests deficiencies in the Mantus M1 yet you are unwilling or unable to counter his data. The article and data will have been subjected to peer review.

There seem to be some contractions that you seem unwilling to address. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with Practical Sailor, in fact it is healthy. Ignoring the data suggest an inability to counter the evidence that Darrell Nicholson presents and this might undermine many of the recommendations and comments you make.

As Tranona make mention - Delta is supplied as standard on many charter yachts and is a common commissioning anchor on new yachts. If the Delta was as bad as you portray there would be an upswell of comments and charter operators would have been forced to offer alternative ground tackle. The OP of this thread mentions that other people using anchors, ostensibly, similar to his own and ostensibly in similar seabeds to where he is located have success in setting Delta anchors - which suggests the problem is not one of the anchor but of technique.

It could be that the images in your thread of Delta anchors poorly set are from people whose technique is yet to be honed.

Fortunately the OP for this thread has chosen to ask the questions here and has enjoyed advice from many who have happily used a Delta anchor - again contradicting your pictures of poorly set Deltas as being typical.

Jonathan

Darrell Nicholson. https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrell-nicholson-60209a6

peer review for this article was probably conducted by Ralph Neranjo

The Art of Seamanship: Evolving Skills, Exploring Oceans, and Handling Wind, Waves, and Weather - Practical Sailor

 

[vyv_cox]

On the thread below I posted a photo of every anchor I observed over an 18 month period. There was no selective editing. There are hundreds of images with contributions from many cruisers. Very few show convex plough anchors, such as the Delta, performing anywhere near as well as new generation models in the same anchorage.

This is not some conspiracy. The Delta struggles in some difficult substrates such as hard sand. The difference is not subtle.

Photos of Anchors Setting - Page 129 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

I carried Delta anchors for about 20 years, including about 7 or 8 in the Ionian and Aegean. The final one dragged only twice. Once was outside Pwllheli marina on a surf beach, very hard packed sand. The anchor utterly refused to set in many attempts. I never found sand as hard as that in the Mediterranean, not surprisingly.

The other time of dragging was just the opposite, soft mud and storm force winds, when the Delta ploughed a furrow.

 

[Zing]

Yes, by observation (if you have spent the same time in that area as I have) it tells you that thousands manage to anchor perfectly satisfactorily with the anchors provided on their boats….

Of course. It's not about normal situations, it’s about the rare events. It’s the rare events that cause disasters, like plane crashes for example. That’s what a better design, a heavier, bigger surface area anchor will give you additional protection from. Plus, less hassle as they set far quicker. Very nice, but not necessary I admit.