36ft sailboat, anchoring not going well

Refueler

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Maybe you bought a racing boat, the previous owner was one of those smart guys who make their anchors in thin plywood and spray it with grey metal coloured paint and keep it at a distance from the Racing Committee equipment controllers. :D

mmmm just received my LYS Certificate for this years Regatta's / Races .... mmmmm
 

Slowboat35

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Anchor and chain "settle"? Seriously? How on earth could that happen? If the anchor and chain are on the bottom that's where they stay until they're pulled straight and asked to dig in - they aren't worms wriggling into a flower bed!
Far too often I've seen boats either dropping depth + 1 metre and motoring back expecting the anchor to bite, or more often dumping most of the chain locker in a heap, motoring back a bit, finding they're not snubbed (because the chain never got stretched out) and recovering it all to repeat. Sometimes making the same mistake many times over.
Lower anchor to bottom with a few metres of slack, go slow astern while veering chain (so laying it down in a line) to your chosen multiple, snub chain and wait for boat to be brought-up. When brought-up increase astern power and check for dragging. If desired then add more chain and repeat. If the catenary is stretching out much as you reverse you are likely overdoing astern/under-doing chain release. Chain needs to be disappearing at a steep/very steep angle to lay it out prior to straightening it and then trying to dig the anchor in.
Whether your 'copy' anchor is 2 degrees off the alignment of the imagined and much-hyped paragon of perfection it is alleged to be modelled on (fnaar!) is irrelevant. Unless it is wildly badly configured - in which case it would probably look 'wrong' to the eye - or is simply unsuitable for the bottom it should work.
Though...many popular Greek sandy anchorages have been so ploughed up that the sand is completely loose and offers no bite to any kind of anchor bar a naffing great mudweight, and a thin layer of sand on a rocky bottom is no better. How do you know how deep the sand is?
I suggest that if you cant get the anchor dug in after two or three attempts it's time to find a different spot, and in crowded Med anchorages where you have to try around the onlt tight spaces that are left there is very likely a good reason why no-one else is anchored there...
 
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Refueler

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'Anchor and chain "settle"? Seriously? How on earth could that happen? If the anchor and chain are on the bottom that's where they stay until they're pulled straight and asked to dig in - they aren't worms wriggling into a flower bed!'

Settle - in terms of letting them settle onto the bottom - so when boat pulls - the chain will exert as near horizontal pull on anchor - as YOU also say.

OP appears to be not letting anchor and chain lay (settle) on bottom before engaging astern ..
 

vyv_cox

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Whether your 'copy' anchor is 2 degrees off the alignment of the imagined and much-hyped paragon of perfection it is alleged to be modelled on (fnaar!) is irrelevant. Unless it is wildly badly configured - in which case it would probably look 'wrong' to the eye - or is simply unsuitable for the bottom it should work.
This is straight from Rocna. Whenever they submitted anchors for test, years ago, they selected anchors that were perfectly aligned. Their own tests proved that a 2 degree misalignment compromised setting and holding significantly.

The Panope test of a 25 kg (from memory) Rocna that performed very badly was on a bent example given to the tester that he attempted to straighten. A later test on a lighter, new example that was straight tested as we would expect, very well.
 

Neeves

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'Anchor and chain "settle"? Seriously? How on earth could that happen? If the anchor and chain are on the bottom that's where they stay until they're pulled straight and asked to dig in - they aren't worms wriggling into a flower bed!'

Settle - in terms of letting them settle onto the bottom - so when boat pulls - the chain will exert as near horizontal pull on anchor - as YOU also say.

OP appears to be not letting anchor and chain lay (settle) on bottom before engaging astern ..

If you dive on your anchor and the chain is off the seabed then you can feel the anchor twitching. Movement of the yacht is transmitted straight down the rode which acts like a long steel rod. You can test this yourself. Take a long length of chain and suspend it between two points and have someone gently hit the end of the chain. You at the other end can immediately feel the effects of the hit. This is happening repetitively for your freely suspended rode - as your yacht moves with a slight chop. In seabeds the twitching could be sufficient in many seabeds, most except very hard sand, to encourage the anchor to settle (specially so in muds).

The seabed in immediate proximity to the anchor has had its cohesion destroyed as a result of the anchor being pulled, slightly or aggressively, the seabed shear strength is not that of the 'untouched' seabed and will take time to regain that shear strength.

The anchor acts just like a worm in a flower bed. :). There is a difference - the worm digs itself to safety, anchor remain inanimate

You can do something similar your self. Stand on a beach in the shallows and simply twiddle your toes and your feet will slowly settle in the sand.

The changes in shear strength has been a major research topic for the US Navy.

This one reason to have a scope such that the rode is on the seabed and for the use of snubbers. The chain on the seabed and a snubber reduces or removes completely the ability of the rode to cause twitching and the seabed will have a higher shear strength in the presence of a non-twitching anchor.

Jonathan
 
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Neeves

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Vyv has a marvellous picture of a Rocna, I think it was a Rocna, after a strong wind event.

It indicates that the Rocna has moved forward, but not dragged. The chain has been thrashing the seabed in an arc, either the yacht or the wind has been veering. The fact the rode has thrashed the seabed means that at times there is no rode on the seabed and there are 'upward' forces on the shank shackle end. Importantly though the anchor has moved and the rode (at times) is trying to lift the shank, not necessarily because the wind has become stronger but maybe the constant thrashing of the rode has tweaked the anchor causing the sheer strength of the seabed to reduce. Importantly - the anchor has not dragged and maybe has dived more deeply.

I don't know if the anchor was over sized or not. But the image is very reassuring of the performance of the Rocna (again from memory) in a sand seabed.

This does not mean, though it might, that a Rocna is without fault - its one example of success.

Jonathan
 

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If you dive on your anchor and the chain is off the seabed then you can feel the anchor twitching. Movement of the yacht is transmitted straight down the rode which acts like a long steel rod. You can test this yourself. Take a long length of chain and suspend it between two points and have someone gently hit the end of the chain. You at the other end can immediately feel the effects of the hit. This is happening repetitively for your freely suspended rode - as your yacht moves with a slight chop. In seabeds the twitching could be sufficient in many seabeds, most except very hard sand, to encourage the anchor to settle (specially so in muds).

The seabed in immediate proximity to the anchor has had its cohesion destroyed as a result of the anchor being pulled, slightly or aggressively, the seabed shear strength is not that of the 'untouched' seabed and will take time to regain that shear strength.

The anchor acts just like a worm in a flower bed. :). There is a difference - the worm digs itself to safety, anchor remain inanimate

You can do something similar your self. Stand on a beach in the shallows and simply twiddle your toes and your feet will slowly settle in the sand.

The changes in shear strength has been a major research topic for the US Navy.

This one reason to have a scope such that the rode is on the seabed and for the use of snubbers. The chain on the seabed and a snubber reduces or removes completely the ability of the rode to cause twitching and the seabed will have a higher shear strength in the presence of a non-twitching anchor.

Jonathan

I am well aware of 'feeling' chain for what anchor is doing ... its same for ships as boats. On ship - if you are on the focsle - you very soon know when anchor is dragging ...

My point - which TBH - I am getting a bit fed up having to repeat .... OP apparently is applying engine BEFORE anchor and rode have laid out to best advantage - he's literally started pulling on an anchor that is barely on the bottom .....
With such broken / loose bottom - that makes it even worse action.

I am shocked - yes shocked at some replies supporting OP's method - which he specifically says fails !!
 

Neeves

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I am well aware of 'feeling' chain for what anchor is doing ... its same for ships as boats. On ship - if you are on the focsle - you very soon know when anchor is dragging ...

My point - which TBH - I am getting a bit fed up having to repeat .... OP apparently is applying engine BEFORE anchor and rode have laid out to best advantage - he's literally started pulling on an anchor that is barely on the bottom .....
With such broken / loose bottom - that makes it even worse action.

I am shocked - yes shocked at some replies supporting OP's method - which he specifically says fails !!
I'm not arguing with you, nor with those whom you mention - as long at the OP is bright (and he must be, he has enquired on YBW. :) ) he can sift through the comments and try the various options offered to him.

The pertinent comment I liked was the one where someone said they had never read of 100% consistent failure - all anchors hold at least some of the time - this one (or the application) seems guaranteed to fail every time.

The OP will get it right - and when he does I hope he reports back what works for him and those who were right (I've not offered my thoughts on technique :) ) can feel vindicated. I'm just waiting for a gap in the discussion to complicate life much more seriously and talk about snubbers.....I jest - I thought I'd raise the ire of those who think I talk anchors too much......:)

Relax and see how it all pans out - and you can then say 'I told you so"


On ship - if you are on the focsle - you very soon know when anchor is dragging ...

You mean you don't touch the rode gently to 'feel' if the anchor is dragging :)


Jonathan
 

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I've just anchored in a small bay where my wife and I come almost every day to swim, snorkel and padlleboard. It's flat calm as it has been early morning every day for the last 10 or so days. After making a slow 360⁰ turn I dropped the anchor in 2.2M followed by 10M of chain. The anchor just sat there on It's side, with the chain balled up nearby. I waited 10 minutes and nothing changed, with the boat sitting over the anchor and the chain. I'm pretty sure it would stay like that, if I left it so, until the breeze gets up a bit, probably in around 2 hours.
I then put one of the engines in reverse and took it out as soon as I saw the chain starting to straighten. The chain extended fully but the anchor didn't budge - still on It's side. I then put both engines in reverse at min revs. The anchor sat up and moved in the direction of pull between 50 and 100cm. I applied more revs and the anchor dug in nicely.
Apart from waiting 10 min that almost replicates what I do all the time and it's rarely failed me. But, everyone to their own. Safe sailing.
 

capnsensible

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As the Officer so often on the Focsle - that 6 - 7 knots ?? Most likely the anchor is not on bottom ... but very close ... in small area / crowded anchorages - it was usual to put anchor into the water so many 'shackles' so that its just a short drop and snub. But all the ships I was on ... from 900 to 440,000 tonnes - we would never have anchor on bottom at such speed ... if you see the damage that can be done to bow of ship at just 2 - 3 knots ... as well as the sheer wear and tear on the gypsy / brake etc.

Not saying you didn't see that ... just that I have never done that ...
They didn't anchor at that speed. Veered out loadsa chain, and as I said, stopped engine, slowed down and snubbed.
 

jordanbasset

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I've just anchored in a small bay where my wife and I come almost every day to swim, snorkel and padlleboard. It's flat calm as it has been early morning every day for the last 10 or so days. After making a slow 360⁰ turn I dropped the anchor in 2.2M followed by 10M of chain. The anchor just sat there on It's side, with the chain balled up nearby. I waited 10 minutes and nothing changed, with the boat sitting over the anchor and the chain. I'm pretty sure it would stay like that, if I left it so, until the breeze gets up a bit, probably in around 2 hours.
I then put one of the engines in reverse and took it out as soon as I saw the chain starting to straighten. The chain extended fully but the anchor didn't budge - still on It's side. I then put both engines in reverse at min revs. The anchor sat up and moved in the direction of pull between 50 and 100cm. I applied more revs and the anchor dug in nicely.
Apart from waiting 10 min that almost replicates what I do all the time and it's rarely failed me. But, everyone to their own. Safe sailing.
Yes but you neglected to make yourself a cup of tea, if you had done that the anchor would of dug itself in 😀
 

westernman

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Yes but you neglected to make yourself a cup of tea, if you had done that the anchor would of dug itself in 😀
The key is to start the digging in process very slowly. You do not want to move the anchor more than an inch every 5 seconds or so.
This is particularly important for old style CQR anchors.

Done right a CQR will dig in on first go, and then you can apply full reverse thrust and it will hold well. May be better than some modern anchors.

We were anchored on night in a bay with another boat - a Bavaria I think. Both properly anchored and dug in.
Over night the wind increased to a solid gale and brought some chop into the bay (which is normally well sheltered from waves).

The Bavaria dragged and ended up on the beach on its side. We held with no issues (except I did not sleep much that night). It is possible they did not have an adequate snubber for the chop. My rode was tight some of the time. I had 40m of heavy chain (a size bigger than for most 50ft yachts) out and about 7m of snubber using nylon warps (which were being stretched substantially from time to time).

The Bavaria was towed off the beach by a Spanish life boat which was very expertly maneuvered. I don't think they had any damage.
 

Irish Rover

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The key is to start the digging in process very slowly. You do not want to move the anchor more than an inch every 5 seconds
Please don't be offended but, in terms of advice, to an inexperienced boater, this is a just a waste of time. How in the name of God does he control this. Most of the time you can't even see the anchor and, even if you could, you certainly can't control the momentum of a 10/15/20 tonne boat so precisely. Anchoring is not a science. It's a matter of developing a technique, through experience, that suits you, your boat, and your anchor, and being able to tweak or vary it to suit the type of seabed you're encountering. The OP has lost confidence in himself but he'll overcome that and develop a method that suits him.
 

Zing

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Hello,
I'm currently cruising in Greece (Ionian) on my 36ft sailboat, 6 tons, from 2000, shallow draft, and I have trouble anchoring.
I see other boats dropping the anchor, going back slowly while dropping and with very little scope (way less than 1:5) they are stuck from the first try.

I do the same, even with more scope and I really have trouble staying stuck. Last night in muddy underground at a dept of 3m (under the keel so about 6m till the deck) I had to try 3 times. The days before about the same.
First season on the boat, 15kg delta type anchor (I don't think a "real brand" delta) and I have 50m of 8mm chain + 30m of rope.
I often drag already with the engine just in 1 click on reverse and having laid out about 45m of chain in 3m of dept (under the keel).
Something doesn't add up to me, is there something I am doing wrong or what can I do to do this better?

I do notice that sand works better (I was stuck with 1500rpm in reverse) but still, I have lost all confidence. Any spot in Navily that says "very good holding", I have trouble. And it is not even windy (yet).

My procedure:
  1. Bring the boat to a standstill
  2. Drop enough so the anchor touches the bottom (let out the dept)
  3. Push gear in reverse (1 click)
  4. Drop more until about 1:5
  5. Stop dropping and see if we drag (engine still in reverse)
  6. If not dragging (which does not happen often), test till 2000 rpm in reverse and check for dragging.
Currently the only places where I feel a bit safe is in depts under 5m, and that is almost none existant here...

Any suggestions?
I just re-read your post. I thought it was OK, but it isn't. You need to not go into reverse with only the depth of chain out. You will go too fast backwards and it won't dig in. The chain needs to be at a shallow angle to the seabed to dig it in, so let out enough to be sure that happens before backing up, then go very slowly backwards that you maintain a shallow angle from the chain to the anchor. If there is wind, let the wind do the job instead of the engine until you have full scope out. Only then use the engine to dig in. Do it with pulses to avoid pulling out. The anchor needs to dig in slowly in hard substrates. Mud not so much. Remember also in case it's not obvious to measure the scope of chain correctly. It is chain out divided by to the vertical height from the anchor roller to the seabed.

Then if that doesn't work, get a better and bigger anchor like I suggested. No, just get one anyway. I know others strongly disagree, but it's something I strongly believe is very important to do for all that it might be worth.
 

Tranona

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I just re-read your post. I thought it was OK, but it isn't. You need to not go into reverse with only the depth of chain out. You will go too fast backwards and it won't dig in. The chain needs to be at a shallow angle to the seabed to dig it in, so let out enough to be sure that happens before backing up, then go very slowly backwards that you maintain a shallow angle from the chain to the anchor. If there is wind, let the wind do the job instead of the engine until you have full scope out. Only then use the engine to dig in. Do it with pulses to avoid pulling out. The anchor needs to dig in slowly in hard substrates. Mud not so much. Remember also in case it's not obvious to measure the scope of chain correctly. It is chain out divided by to the vertical height from the anchor roller to the seabed.

Then if that doesn't work, get a better and bigger anchor like I suggested. No, just get one anyway. I know others strongly disagree, but it's something I strongly believe is very important to do for all that it might be worth.
A 15kg anchor is more than adequate for a modern 36' sailboat. Smack bang in the middle of most of the manufacturers' sizing charts. The setting problem experienced in Platarias where the OP is (and most of the Ionian) is nothing to do with the size (or probably design) of the anchor but the nature of the seabed. There is a technique for overcoming it that has been well described already by many. The Delta is probably the most common anchor used in the area as just about all the charter boats use it, and before that became standard used mostly CQR copies or Britany anchors as that is what came with the boats.

Of course a better design (but not heavier) anchor may well set easier and better but will require the same technique.
 
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