36ft sailboat, anchoring not going well

[vyv_cox]

I don't think there is much wrong with your anchor or your technique. I had a Delta for many years and used it widely in the Ionian. Soft mud is its Achilles heel but there is not a lot of that there. My technique is close to yours but I sense that you are not certain about scope measurement. It is measured from the bow roller, so check the offset from your depth sounder.

I would not use any serious reverse power until I have at least 3:1 out in 4-5 metres but you will probably need to trickle power astern to get there.

Not sure about your copy anchor. It will probably be ok but ensure it is very precisely symmetrical. Even 2 degrees of misalignment will ruin setting (Rocna information)

 

[Refueler]

You need a few revs if it’s dead calm and no current.

Surely you must have experience with absolutely no wind and no current - it’s very common in the Med. As in my reply I tend to let the boat drift to let the chain out but only if there is something to make it drift. Otherwise its lowest revs in reverse in the likely direction the wind will return. Then the full reverse built up to once the chain is fully out. Not to test the chain and anchor - hopefully you already know they are sound - but to test that bit of sea bed in case squall comes up when you are out for the day or asleep.

Of course if boat is not drifting - then I already said - to give a nudge / burst of engine to start her moving ... but I am against using engine even slowly on a steady basis as OP seems to indicate. IMHO - he's not giving anchor chance to be pulled horizontally by scope paying out.

But those times of no current / wind are few and far between ... and I prefer a gentle drift anyway ... in fact I have used AHEAD engine to reduce drift rate at times ...

 

[Neeves]

If your anchor is a copy it might be a bad copy and as Vyv suggests even slight differences in balance, angles etc can make an adequate design a complete disaster.

You are suffering anguish and replacing the anchor might allow you to anchor and relax. The new anchor will be worth every cent, penny you spend. In the grand scheme of things anchors seem expensive but over the years (in general they last for ever) cost peanuts.

You can buy reputable anchors in Greece and I am sure someone here might be able to tell where the nearest chandler is located, near you and what they might stock.

Don't get too excited about the salesman's marketing patter just buy one sized on the manufacturers sizing charts for your 36' yacht - and you will be good to go (or at least good to go reliable anchoring ).

But as you are here - describe your rode.... anchor, shackles?, swivel?, oscalutti bent link? - even take a picture. All of these items look useful and seem innocuous - sometimes they contribute to negative issues you don't see - because they only manifest themselves in/on the seabed. A picture is best as we might spot issues you are ignoring - for example - Incorrect shackles that lock up, swivels wrongly attached etc etc.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

Jonathan's point about the Osculati bent link is a good one. I fitted one as a test and found it seriously inhibited my anchor holding. I suspect it was its combination with three chain links that was the culprit but the test only lasted half a dozen attempts.

 

[Roberto]

Thinking of it, I never heard about any anchor type being so consistenly disastrous in more or less benign conditions, over and over again, even one old Bruce-ish we had decades ago sometimes held, sometimes, and technique then was to chuck everything overboard and go swimming.
Maybe an old Kalamata olives tin can over the tip of the fluke?

 

[westernman]

Thinking of it, I never heard about any anchor type being so consistenly disastrous in more or less benign conditions, over and over again, even one old Bruce-ish we had decades ago sometimes held, sometimes, and technique then was to chuck everything overboard and go swimming.
Maybe an old Kalamata olives tin can over the tip of the fluke?

I am convinced he is backing down too fast, too much and too soon.

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan's point about the Osculati bent link is a good one. I fitted one as a test and found it seriously inhibited my anchor holding. I suspect it was its combination with three chain links that was the culprit but the test only lasted half a dozen attempts.

I confess I was thinking of your experience and report on the Oscalutti bent link, your work on not attaching swivels directly to the anchor, your work on the 3 link separation, use of 'D' shackles, instead of bow shackles, and maybe shackle pin through the shank.

A combination of which would hardly help when anchoring.

Jonathan

 

[Zing]

It’s not your technique as you described it, it’s your anchor. Get a Rocna instead and a much bigger one. The bigger the better. Mud is when you need a big one most. Simples.

Fuse lit and exit stage right….

 

[noelex]

Your technique sounds excellent, but your anchor design is doing you no favours.

The Delta anchor does okay in good substrates, but struggles in some difficult substrates. It does not penetrate hard substrates well and the surface area and convex blade does not provide enough drag in very soft substrates. Unfortunately, these types of substrates are quite common in the Mediterranean. Much of the sand is quite hard, particularly a few inches below the surface and some of the mud anchorages are soft, probably because the mud has been ploughed up by the many boats that have anchored before.

If you could post a photo of your anchor, it would help positively identify the model. Other convex plough anchors are generally a little bit worse than the original Delta, but the difference is not great. There are a couple of exceptions. The Shark anchor is particularly poor. The Kobra and Excel anchors are better.

A new modern anchor design will likely solve all your problems. Anchors such as the Mantus M1, Rocna, and Spade are significantly better than an of the convex plough models. In difficult substrates these will transform your anchoring experience.

When purchasing a new anchor I would also encourage you to fit a larger model if this can be comfortably managed by the crew and boat. This will provide some further reserve in holding ability, which is particularly valuable when encountering difficult substrates.

Below is a photo showing the abysmal result from an original Delta in the hard sand of the Mediterranean. You can see the long setting mark where the Delta has not been able to penetrate the hard sand just below the surface. The holding power is produced mainly by the sand that has been heaped up in front of the blade. While this will hold in light or even moderate winds, it will likely fail in stronger conditions. While this is just one example, unfortunately results like this are very common in the Mediterranean.

 

[Neeves]

Before you spend money on a 'bigger' anchor read this:

Oversize anchors – necessary?

and before you spend any money on a Mantus read this:

An Inquiry into Anchor Angles - Practical Sailor

Jonathan

 

[westernman]

Before you spend money on a 'bigger' anchor read this:

Oversize anchors – necessary?

and before you spend any money on a Mantus read this:

An Inquiry into Anchor Angles - Practical Sailor

Jonathan

Before you even think of getting another anchor see #26.

 

[jordanbasset]

@Refueler
'But those times of no current / wind are few and far between'

From my experience of Greece, where the OP is, that's not correct, often there is little wind when anchoring and there is seldom any current
The added complication in Greece is that many times you will be anchoring tied to rocks, harbour etc, often against what wind there is, so you will definitely need to use your engine

 

[jordanbasset]

Hello,
I'm currently cruising in Greece (Ionian) on my 36ft sailboat, 6 tons, from 2000, shallow draft, and I have trouble anchoring.
I see other boats dropping the anchor, going back slowly while dropping and with very little scope (way less than 1:5) they are stuck from the first try.

I do the same, even with more scope and I really have trouble staying stuck. Last night in muddy underground at a dept of 3m (under the keel so about 6m till the deck) I had to try 3 times. The days before about the same.
First season on the boat, 15kg delta type anchor (I don't think a "real brand" delta) and I have 50m of 8mm chain + 30m of rope.
I often drag already with the engine just in 1 click on reverse and having laid out about 45m of chain in 3m of dept (under the keel).
Something doesn't add up to me, is there something I am doing wrong or what can I do to do this better?

I do notice that sand works better (I was stuck with 1500rpm in reverse) but still, I have lost all confidence. Any spot in Navily that says "very good holding", I have trouble. And it is not even windy (yet).

My procedure:

1. Bring the boat to a standstill
2. Drop enough so the anchor touches the bottom (let out the dept)
3. Push gear in reverse (1 click)
4. Drop more until about 1:5
5. Stop dropping and see if we drag (engine still in reverse)
6. If not dragging (which does not happen often), test till 2000 rpm in reverse and check for dragging.

Currently the only places where I feel a bit safe is in depts under 5m, and that is almost none existant here...

Any suggestions?

Your anchoring technique looks okay, providing you are leaving a little time after the anchor touching bottom and dropping more chain so you have a decent amount of chain out before you go very slow in reverse. If you haven't already, chain markers are good to tell you how much chain you are putting out

Just to rule out any problems can you post a picture of your anchor?
Not saying it is your anchor, but may be something with the set up

 

[Neeves]

Before you even think of getting another anchor see #26.

No-one is arguing, or not me.

I'd do everything possible and test advice - before I even considered opening my wallet. Others are quick to offer the advantage of the open wallet and deep pockets - and I, like you, like to offer better options.

My post offers the opportunity to read statements subject to peer review. Find me someone willing to stand upto your advice, that of Vyv Cox or Practical Sailor.

Jonathan

 

[Refueler]

@Refueler
'But those times of no current / wind are few and far between'

From my experience of Greece, where the OP is, that's not correct, often there is little wind when anchoring and there is seldom any current
The added complication in Greece is that many times you will be anchoring tied to rocks, harbour etc, often against what wind there is, so you will definitely need to use your engine

Ok - then a very short blip of astern just to get boat slowly drifting .. but as others have said and I went into detail about ... LET that anchor settle .. let chain settle and just have boat drifting back laying out scope BEFORE giving it wellie !!

 

[jordanbasset]

Ok - then a very short blip of astern just to get boat slowly drifting .. but as others have said and I went into detail about ... LET that anchor settle .. let chain settle and just have boat drifting back laying out scope BEFORE giving it wellie !!

I agree about letting enough chain out before you start to use the engine. But in many places in Greece, such as those with very hard compacted sand or thick weed, you can let it settle as long as you want, but it will seldom set. From my experience the only way to get it to set in those circumstances is very slow reverse to get it to dig in. Then when it is in to give it more revs to really get it well in
I've lost track of the number of times I saw people fail to use the engine to dig the anchor in, who drift when the wind comes up, a few times when they've gone ashore to a eat

 

[RupertW]

It’s not your technique as you described it, it’s your anchor. Get a Rocna instead and a much bigger one. The bigger the better. Mud is when you need a big one most. Simples.

Fuse lit and exit stage right….

Νice try, but everyone knows Delta’s work fine in almost all circumstances and the NG anchors would equally fail if used in exactly the same way as people who haven’t yet learnt to anchor properly. But of course in the kind of very extreme conditions that I haven’t yet encountered in the Med and Caribbean over 15 years with my Delta then I’m sure a Rocna would hold firmer.

 

[capnsensible]

Ok - then a very short blip of astern just to get boat slowly drifting .. but as others have said and I went into detail about ... LET that anchor settle .. let chain settle and just have boat drifting back laying out scope BEFORE giving it wellie !!

I used to be fascinated watching big ships coming in for bunkers in the Gib anchorages. Veering out loadsa chain whilst still doing 6 or 7 knots. In 50m depth or more. Then stopping engine, drifting a bit then snubbing. Amazing skills. Guess you must be very familiar with this?

On a much smaller scale, an oppo of mine has spent many years in the Windies using the same technique to anchor his 45 foot yacht. Always seems to end up exactly where he wants to be and doesn't drag.

More than one way to skin the cat!

 

[Refueler]

I used to be fascinated watching big ships coming in for bunkers in the Gib anchorages. Veering out loadsa chain whilst still doing 6 or 7 knots. In 50m depth or more. Then stopping engine, drifting a bit then snubbing. Amazing skills. Guess you must be very familiar with this?

On a much smaller scale, an oppo of mine has spent many years in the Windies using the same technique to anchor his 45 foot yacht. Always seems to end up exactly where he wants to be and doesn't drag.

More than one way to skin the cat!

As the Officer so often on the Focsle - that 6 - 7 knots ?? Most likely the anchor is not on bottom ... but very close ... in small area / crowded anchorages - it was usual to put anchor into the water so many 'shackles' so that its just a short drop and snub. But all the ships I was on ... from 900 to 440,000 tonnes - we would never have anchor on bottom at such speed ... if you see the damage that can be done to bow of ship at just 2 - 3 knots ... as well as the sheer wear and tear on the gypsy / brake etc.

Not saying you didn't see that ... just that I have never done that ...

 

[Roberto]

Maybe you bought a racing boat, the previous owner was one of those smart guys who make their anchors in thin plywood and spray it with grey metal coloured paint and keep it at a distance from the Racing Committee equipment controllers.