Yet another which boat thread (Small Trailer Sailer)

[andyb28]

Hi Boaty Folks,

I recently purchased a Nimbus 320, which is ideal for our family trips. The wife is a lot happier being on a motor boat. But already I am missing sailing

So, I am considering a small lifting keel boat that I can leave on a cheap mud mooring. I will be single handed, so it needs to be an easy boat with all lines back to the cockpit.
As I have previously had Hunter boats, I looked at their offerings first. It would seem I could get a Medina or Sonata with lifting keel. The other I think thats worth throwing in the mix is the Parker 21.

I know that Sonatas are well regarded for racing, although I wont be doing that.

The only thing putting me off the Hunters is the transom mounted outboard. It's off to one side. The Parker looks to have a central well from the pictures I have looked at. This will I imagine make the boat a lot easier to manage.

I have never had an outboard sail boat before, so I am trying to get it right first time. I would appreciate any reviews of the boats above from those more experienced than I am.

 

[MisterBaxter]

The lifting keel on the sonata goes into a stub keel, rather than leaving a flush bottom, so the boat would only sit flat in very deep, soft mud. I had one for single-handed cruising and it was a good boat but the Duette would have been better for me (and perhaps for you) - more ballast and twin keels. The Sonata was designed with the expectation of a couple of burly blokes sitting on the rail when sailing to windward, so didn't quite stand up to it's sail in stronger winds when single handed.

 

[William_H]

Re outboard bracket on the transom. I have always had one like that on one side of my 21 fter TS. It has never been a problem provided you have an adjustable bracket and can get the motor low in the water if there is a tendency to lift out of the water on waves. So I would advocate in lieu of difficulties of o/b in well. In worst case I have seen the bottom of the cover start to go briefly under water on my old Johnson 6 in a large swell. But it still kept driving. I like the way I can steer the boat with o/b turned and rudder. However in my case I have pretty much given up on o/b in lieu of relying non sails. Bu that is for my peculiar kind of sailing. ol'will

 

[andyb28]

The lifting keel on the sonata goes into a stub keel, rather than leaving a flush bottom, so the boat would only sit flat in very deep, soft mud. I had one for single-handed cruising and it was a good boat but the Duette would have been better for me (and perhaps for you) - more ballast and twin keels. The Sonata was designed with the expectation of a couple of burly blokes sitting on the rail when sailing to windward, so didn't quite stand up to it's sail in stronger winds when single handed.

Many thanks for this. I did not realise that about Sonatas. The Duette I hadn't even considered, but agree it does look like a sensible option.

 

[Simonpk]

One of my options a fews back was the Jaguar 21 & available with lifting keel.

 

[Supertramp]

Some thoughts borne out of experience.

Ol'will is right about outboards. I had a cut out ahead of the rudder once which motored well but I had to make a plug and unmount the motor to sail properly due to the drag from the opening. A right phaff.

Stub lifting keels sail best. Centre board allows gentle grounding without damage but can get jammed with mud/gravel. Twin keels simpler - later Hunters seem to sail well.

Think about how and where you will use it - sheltered water or coastal? Day sailing or overnights? Many good designs out there suited to different sorts of use.

I have always enjoyed the ability to beach a lift keel boat in the right circumstances - adds a new dimension to sailing and cruising grounds.

 

[fredrussell]

You pay a premium for Parker boats but you do get a nice boat for that extra outlay. I have the 31, but, bias aside, if I was looking at 21 foot lift keel boats I’d save a few grand and get a Jaguar 21. Good boats with a good rep so easy to sell later on if you fancy summat else.

 

[greeny]

I used have a Parker 21 years ago but sold her when I went bigger. When i was downsizing last year i looked for one and couldn't get one over here in Portugal and prices in UK were high plus the VAT issues. I eventually settled on a Jeanneau 2K. On a trailer, I leave her on a berth in season and take back to home for the winter. Keel fully retractable and taking the ground no problem with the large cast keel plate. Accommodation basic but she sails very well and is pretty quick in the right hands. Much better than the Parker for me now that I'm older. One advantage is that the keel is dropped and raised from the cockpit unlike my Parker that had the lowering mechanism on the deck just in front of the mast via a winch handle. Just my thoughts for what they're worth.

 

[wombat88]

We had a Jaguar 21 lift keel, quite quick and normally cheap, can plane in the right conditions. The keel case splits things up internally but is liveable with with two. It is a light and quite tender boat but good fun. Keel case makes the deck etc nice and robust. Outboard in a well.

I have heard of them getting blown over on an exposed drying mooring in extreme conditions, I'm not sure how.

 

[westernman]

How many people with a trailer sailer actually do both?
If it is big enough to sail and overnight on, it is not going to be practical to trail, launch and rig on a regular basis.

So either go for something you can really trail - like a dinghy. Or really sail and overnight on like a proper cruiser on a berth or
mooring.

Of course this is a trailer sailer (Beneteau First 27) which sails well. But I would not like to be launching and retrieving it every weekend. I think this one of the few trailable boats with a proper loo.



Of course there are some people who cruise long distances in dinghies. Such as:-

May be the best answer is two boats??

 

[greeny]

How many people with a trailer sailer actually do both?
If it is big enough to sail and overnight on, it is not going to be practical to trail, launch and rig on a regular basis.

So either go for something you can really trail - like a dinghy. Or really sail and overnight on like a proper cruiser on a berth or
mooring.

Of course this is a trailer sailer (Beneteau First 27) which sails well. But I would not like to be launching and retrieving it every weekend. I think this one of the few trailable boats with a proper loo.

View attachment 157149

Of course there are some people who cruise long distances in dinghies. Such as:-

May be the best answer is two boats??

Not me.
I would not even think about launching, sailing and recovering on the same day. Far too much work with the mast raising and lowering included. Did it a few times with the Parker 21 in my younger days but soon got fed up with the hassle. The Sun 2k is harder work than the Parker was (or maybe i'm just older now). OK with a couple of willing hands but hard work on your own as I usually am. The main advantage for me is that you can launch when you like and recover when you like. For a week, month or season. Then tow it home for the winter to get all the jobs done. No yard fees or long drives to get to the boat only to discover you forgot the thingummy tool that you needed to do the job you went for.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Ssshhh dare I mention the all round 'Good Egg' the Anderson 22.

 

[Rum Run]

Ssshhh dare I mention the all round 'Good Egg' the Anderson 22.

You may, yes.
Engine in offset well, good singlehander, keel bulb. Mine has a proper bog!

 

[DownWest]

Been here before.
Both myself and a local friend trail sail. The key bit is getting her rigged and ready in the shortest time. So we applied ourselves to that. Mine is a 15ft gunter fearing and his a 15ftLOD gaffer. Both can be launched and ready to go about 10 minutes.
Now, we are both launching new boats. His a 6mt gaffer and mine a 5mtr cat yawl. Again, time is spent getting the rigs up quickly. His will likely be around the same 10 minute mark, mine a bit longer as the masts are unstayed and the main is 7mtr, so will need a tackle and frame to rig.

Boats with keels need more depth to launch, tends to put them in the 'not for the week-end' bunch.
Other than building, The Cape Cutter 19 has a rig that goes up quickly and has space for four 'friends' would work well for two, but limited headroom.

 

[andyb28]

Maybe the subject was a bit open ended with ‘trailer sailer’. As I mentioned in the original post, I have no intention on driving the boat back and forth. It’s going on a F/A Mooring and depending on what’s available, might need to dry out.

Thank you for the suggestions and points raised, they are all helping me find the right boat.
I am going to be on my own most the time and might spend the odd night onboard to make a weekend of sailing. So keel restriction internally isn’t an issue.

I’m sailing out of Brightlingsea (if they can fit me in) so it’s all east coast sailing. Interestingly there is a Jaguar 21 for sale with a mooring paid up for the year in B’sea.

Edit, figured it worth consolidating the list so far. (not in any particular order)

Hunter Medina
Parker 21
Hunter Duette / Horizon
Anderson 22
Jaguar 21
Jeanneau Sun 2000
Leisure 23/23SL

 

[Tranona]

The Leisure does not fit in that list. A bit stodgy compared with the other sprightly performers.

Now you have ditched the trailer sailor bit and just want a decent performing 20-24' boat for not a lot of money a whole new world opens up as there were many boats that fit the requirement from the 70s - 90s when the market was huge. Just off the top of my head, Fox Terriers, E boats, GK 24 and all the other Quarter tonner spin offs. Keep an open mind and just look at anything that fits the broad parameters.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Obvious what I’d suggest, but if it’s ‘road transportable’ but not a trailer sailor, you could consider a Strider catamaran too. 24ft, decent sailing performance, and dries out without a second thought. Family friendly as a day sailer, camper cruiser too. Ours even had a proper loo.

 

[scottie]

The Leisure does not fit in that list. A bit stodgy compared with the other sprightly performers.

Now you have ditched the trailer sailor bit and just want a decent performing 20-24' boat for not a lot of money a whole new world opens up as there were many boats that fit the requirement from the 70s - 90s when the market was huge. Just off the top of my head, Fox Terriers, E boats, GK 24 and all the other Quarter tonner spin offs. Keep an open mind and just look at anything that fits the broad parameters.

 

[William_H]

Just talking about lifting keel designs in a TS. There are pros and cons. My TS has a vertically lifting semi ballasted keel (100kg) that has good foil shape in GRP and retracts nicely right into hull to give very shallow water floating. ie very much like a racing dinghy. It sails to windward really well in part I believe due to keel and hull shape. However it is a real pain where the structure for lifting the keel ie mast compression post plus another further aft of the CB case makes moving to forward cabin awkward. I fit a bolt to lock the keel down. Yes it is a worry when I hit. (often) rocks or sand. The bolt holding keel down is at the back and tends to get bent but mostly the keel is undamaged. I am able to access the top part of keel from inside cabin and bottom part whiole on trailer by pushing backwards about 30cms where it is clear to drop to ground. I jack the trailer to give me another 10cms or so. (for cleaning and antifouling)
Now one local design here has a swing keel out of a stub keel. The design is such that the keel case does not extend above the floor so no intrusion in to cabin space. Another design has swing keel without stub keel but keel case intrudes into cabin from entry to mast step about 40cms high dividing the cabin floor fore and aft. Not nice. The swing keel may be of GRP or even cast iron with some foil shape. More often just a flat plate. The flat plate means not very good up wind performance. (IMHO)
The OP needs to consider the lifting mechanism. Often a wire. Often difficult to get to for replacement.
I would not rate the raising of the mast as a major problem when trailering and launching for each trip. It takes me perhaps as long to fit boom, bend on sails, run halyards back to cockpit etc. All cumulative time taken. Perhaps 30 mins. But then also to stow car and trailer. Sop yes I leave my TS on a mooring and take it home for winter. ol'will

 

[MADRIGAL]

Re outboard bracket on the transom. I have always had one like that on one side of my 21 fter TS. It has never been a problem provided you have an adjustable bracket and can get the motor low in the water if there is a tendency to lift out of the water on waves. So I would advocate in lieu of difficulties of o/b in well. In worst case I have seen the bottom of the cover start to go briefly under water on my old Johnson 6 in a large swell. But it still kept driving. I like the way I can steer the boat with o/b turned and rudder. However in my case I have pretty much given up on o/b in lieu of relying non sails. Bu that is for my peculiar kind of sailing. ol'will

I have the same offset motor bracket (as have many Wayfarers) and have not encountered any trim problems. The only steering problem I've had was keeping the rudder out of the propeller when steering with the boat's tiller, but turning the motor a few degrees to starboard when manoeuvring at low speeds solved that without compromising directional control.

Some people with transom-hung, tilting rudders will lift the rudder with an uphaul and steer with the o/b in tight quarters.