What's the fascination with long keels?

[Wandering Star]

What does "stalling out" mean in the context of these posts? I've never heard this expression before. I'm a firm supporter of the "heavy displacement long keel is best for passagemaking" arguments (one of the entrenched, I'm afraid), but I wouldn't start to claim my little V27 was more manouverable in close quarters situations than a comparable sized modern fin and skeg design, which is why I'm curious what the term means.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[john_morris_uk]

What a strange argument this has become!

All keels stall, some more readily than others. However, I wouldn't put a non stalling keel at the top of the list, even when it comes to manouverability in confined spaces under sail. For that requirement, I'd put turning circle first.

Very often pre start manouvers involve being able to hold the boat head to wind for extended periods, or creep forward slowly, waiting for the right time to "pull the trigger" and go for it.
I don't recall ever thinking "wow, this would be so much easier if I had a long keel".

I agree - I have just re-read the latter posts and the arguments had become slightly silly.

However I really do object to the proposal that long keeled boats are easier to maneuver at close quarters. Their asset that is plaudited, that is, their ability to sail in a straight line, is a pain in the backside when tacking and gybing through moorings or into an anchorage let alone a marina berth.

(Regarding the latter, please note we don't spend much time in Marinas at the moment and we certainly don't intend to spend much time in Marinas when we are off round the world...)

 

[chrisedwards]

I sailed an ex baltic trader once with a very traditional long keel. We could go sideways with the best of them. I also suspect that there was more keel area on the Nicholson 55 than there was on the trader which was rather bigger....

So long keel doesn't always mean more area - and I suggest that long keels can stall out just as well as fin keeled ones.

You are absolutely right - a long keeler can stall out just as well as a fin (your earlier statement said that well designed fin keels do not stall but no matter- so many smokescreens - Baltic Traders?? your last post going off at a tangent..long keels dont always mean more area - thats a desperate argument - you talk about well designed fin keelers and I have not allowed to respond with well designed long keelers) but a well designed longkeeler has more lateral resistance - almost by definition - I'm talking about slow speed manoeuverability (would you believe) - where lateral resistance is king- This is an important consideration for a bluewater boat - we read of so many of these boats holed up in obscure ports waiting for engine spares because of doubts over the boats ability to manoeuvre in close quaters situations under sail and so unable to get to more apropriate ports).

So to summarise - a well designed fin keeler is brilliant at many things - over a long keeler but not all things - which was your point. Where the longkeeler is better just might be very important to the boatowner - as in my argument above.

You have called me deluded but can I assure you that my points are based on experience having owned 21 yachts and sailed numerous others. I have sailed over a thousand times in the last eight years alone - everyone doing what I like doing - close quarters manoeuvering under sail. If this is what you like to do then there is a good argument for a long keeler.

 

[E39mad]

I disagree, having sailed our Sun Legende some 18,000mls in all weathers with just us two wrinklies, that it isn't well balanced. I pointed out in another reply that the pilot on ours had an irritating little trick of switching itself to standby unasked, sometimes not for 24hrs, sometimes twice in an hour. Very often the boat would sail herself for quite some time before we even questioned if something had changed, irrespective of being on or off the wind.

Please read my post again - I did not say that Sun Legende was unbalanced or isn't well balanced ..... just that one particular design is particularly well balanced in comparison! In the same way I would say that the V34 is better balanced than a Rustler 36. The Sun Legende for it's design it is a very good boat!

 

[flaming]

This is an important consideration for a bluewater boat - we read of so many of these boats holed up in obscure ports waiting for engine spares because of doubts over the boats ability to manoeuvre in close quaters situations under sail and so unable to get to more apropriate ports).

Surely in most cases this is more a statement over the confidence of the skipper to manouver in close quaters than the boat...?

And are you seriously saying that if you were entered into a "close quaters manouvering under sail" competition you would choose a long keeled, heavy displacement boat as your weapon of choice....?

 

[Kukri]

Knowing what the boat will do is what matters most - but whilst I used to sail my Dragon into and out of marina berths (and yes she would be my weapon of choice!) I would not try that with the gaff cutter...

 

[Twister_Ken]

Surely in most cases this is more a statement over the confidence of the skipper to manouver in close quaters than the boat...?

And are you seriously saying that if you were entered into a "close quaters manouvering under sail" competition you would choose a long keeled, heavy displacement boat as your weapon of choice....?

Don't want to put words in Chris's mouth, but a good long keeper is very predictable and will let you place her on a sixpence. If you were trying to sail through a fleet of racing dinghies, she wouldn't be as responsive as a narrow chord keel, but for planned manoeuvres, knowing you're going to end up where you aimed is very reassuring.

 

[Flashy]

It's when the keel no longer acts as a hydrofoil, opposing leeway. When the keel stalls leeway increases dramatically -- it's really noticeable when maneuvering in close quarters as you have plenty to judge your movement against. It's not just about lateral resistance.

The lift and stalling characteristics of a keel depends on a bunch of things, of which I understand about 10%. But I THINK keels with high aspect ratios (essentially deep and narrow i.e. a fin) tend to be able to point higher while maintaining lift than those with low aspect ratios. However, keels which don't have a large surface area (arguably more likely to be a fin than a long keel) can stall at lower speeds. So it's swings and roundabouts to some extent.

I don't know enough about specific boats to really comment, but I remember trying to do manoeuvres in a Bavaria under mainsail and maintaining lift while going upwind was a total nightmare at any speed. That had a fin.

 

[Robin]

Please read my post again - I did not say that Sun Legende was unbalanced or isn't well balanced ..... just that one particular design is particularly well balanced in comparison! In the same way I would say that the V34 is better balanced than a Rustler 36. The Sun Legende for it's design it is a very good boat!

OK understood. Please forgive me for not reading your reply properly as I'm in house selling mode at present with a previous viewer coming back for a second look in a couple of hours and 'bringing his builder', hopefully to increase his first offer a tad, but then it might be to go the other way. It tends to make me a little stressed.

 

[Simondjuk]

Close handling manners of importance in a bluewater boat? Surely much more important in a marina hopper which doesn't spend weeks at sea doing no close handling whatsoever.

 

[Poignard]

I would rate 'predictability' above 'manouverability'. Being able to go dead slow whilst maintaining steerage way and not being affected by an unexpected gust of wind is reassuring. Much easier on the nerves than having to charge into a berth at speed and then relying on a burst of astern power to stop you (or the missus leaping ashore with a spring )

 

[rotrax]

OK - I think I stated my case - I didn't think it was an argument that anyone can win. Boats are always a compromise in one way or another.

I thought I indicated that a week ago!

 

[Robin]

I would rate 'predictability' above 'manouverability'. Being able to go dead slow whilst maintaining steerage way and not being affected by an unexpected gust of wind is reassuring. Much easier on the nerves than having to charge into a berth at speed and then relying on a burst of astern power to stop you (or the missus leaping ashore with a spring )

You could always have it predictably unpredictable by reversing in.

 

[rotrax]

@John Morris -
.





I do not count the Island Packets as true long keelers.

Island Packet dont describe their keels as long keels either but "Full Foil Keels" If you look at the hull profile its nearer a long keel than a fin, with the advantage of shoal draught. After owning ours for three years we are starting to get the hang of sailing her-she likes 15knts. plus true wind to get going fast- well fastish for a heavy boat- but will go OK in less. We love her and thats all that is important.

 

[Poignard]

You could always have it predictably unpredictable by reversing in.

Ah yes - the Achilles heel of the Twister.

Enter a marina and then spend your time there worrying about how you're going to get out!

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I would rate 'predictability' above 'manouverability'. Being able to go dead slow whilst maintaining steerage way and not being affected by an unexpected gust of wind is reassuring. Much easier on the nerves than having to charge into a berth at speed and then relying on a burst of astern power to stop you (or the missus leaping ashore with a spring )

+1
My missus has ceased leaping anywhere

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I'm talking about close quarters, intricate manoeuvering - nothing like your "match racing" - here my long keeler will "run circles" around the types you claim are better - the science is very crude - lateral resistance is greater - and this is important at slow speeds. .

I dont believe you are right. Lateral resistance at slow speeds depends on keel area so a deep fin with the same area as your shallow long keel will offer the same lateral resistance.

 

[pyrojames]

I am amazed by the claims for huge speeds from owners of both heavy and light displacement boats. Where are all these boats that should obviously be whizzing past leaving me in their wakes?

Out of sight ahead of you!? Of perhaps you are tucked up in marina or creek, while we power our way offshore in 7s and 8s!

 

[Twister_Ken]

I dont believe you are right. Lateral resistance at slow speeds depends on keel area so a deep fin with the same area as your shallow long keel will offer the same lateral resistance.

Yes, in principle, no in practice, coz the lateral resistance is spread down the length of the boat, therefore the whole boat will slowly drift sideways, rather than the bow blowing off as she spins around her stiletto keel.

 

[rotrax]

I would rate 'predictability' above 'manouverability'. Being able to go dead slow whilst maintaining steerage way and not being affected by an unexpected gust of wind is reassuring. Much easier on the nerves than having to charge into a berth at speed and then relying on a burst of astern power to stop you (or the missus leaping ashore with a spring )

I agree. Despite being fairly new to sailing it is very obvious to First Mate-who is I/C steering- that our IP is so much easier than our previous two fin keelers when picking up a mooring or ferry gliding to go alongside in a blow. She is far less likely to get out of shape and carries her way without the bow blowing off.