What's the fascination with long keels?

[Robin]

I raced a Sun Legende 41 alot twenty plus years ago. Helios was the boat. I have also sailed V34's and it's predecessor the V32. Contrary to modern french production boats the Sun Legende was a well built boat with lots of solid joinery work down below..... however ... to put it in the same category as a Vancouver is rather beyond the mark! Directional stability and balance under sail especially are poles apart particularly if short handed.

Both are lovely boats but are for different markets imho.

You are right, because the directional stability on ours was actually superb as was the balance under sail and steering was a fingertip joy in all conditions including a couple of full gales. We sailed around 18,000 miles in ours. just two of us (so fairly short handed) and both full bus pass holders. Ours was one with a taller rig and deeper keel too. When we sold ours the new owners took her (two up) straight from Poole to Le Havre, non stop, mid-December with ice on the decks and horizontal snow mid-Channel in the 40kt plus winds. This was despite never having sailed or even motored her beforehand. They did the whole trip in the dark and averaged 7.5kts all sailed door to door. Ours took 6th place in the AZAB two handed race too back in 1996.

We have friends with a Victoria 34 too, very nice but half the size to live in and so slooow, even under engine which they used rather a lot compared to us. Still they did have more street cred in the bar.

 

[Robin]

I dont know the Jeanneau 41 Sun Legend, in fact in 25 years of ownership I have been happy enough with my yacht to have only had two, a 28 and now the 34. I have though sailed other peoples yachts of various pedigree and short or singled handed I was never happy with a fast performance design. I like the yacht to feel right and give me plenty of advanced warning when she needs a bit of attention. This is why I said under 36' also to keep things well under control while short handed, tired and cold. However I do acknowledge I have never been in a hurry about anything, life is too short.

I did Google for a report of the 41 Sun Legend and it doesn't seem to warrant the side by side comparison that you are trying to make.

Quote:
Jeaneaus have always struck me as one step below Beneteau on build quality and several steps down on design quality. The Sun Legend 41 is a recycled IOR typeform hull and rig cut down to make a cruising boat of sorts. They represent the kind of thinking that made the IOR rule so notorious, under ballasted, tender and prone to being over powered and wiping out but with poor light air performance.

While these boats have a certain cult following they have never appealled to me. Perhaps some of my distain for these boats comes from watching an acquaintance try to put one back together after being in the charter trade.

To me they are underwhelming and over priced.

You need to shed a few pounds of prejudice and read a different report or two.

20 years old interior, really shabby that.

20 years old exterior, pretty shabby too

And oh so hard to sail, needs a full crew of course

Plus of course so slow in light winds

We sold her for just £3,000 less than we paid, after ten years of wall to wall grins. The new owner said the sailing was superb on his very first trip described above and far better than he expected or dared hope.

Still what do I know?

 

[Conachair]

........................
We sold her for just £3,000 less than we paid, after ten years of wall to wall grins. The new owner said the sailing was superb on his very first trip described above and far better than he expected or dared hope.

Still what do I know?

So are you saying that a Jeanneau is on a par with a Vancouver for bluewater sailing?

Or that they are cheap?

 

[doug748]

Still what do I know?

I know you bought a cabin cruiser after that Legende.

 

[oldbilbo]

I think you've convinced me. Where do I sign....

 

[pyrojames]

If I could work out how to upload the video I'd show a 60 year old long keeler doing 9+ knots past Beachy! (single handed)

 

[Bosun Higgs]

"Until", as one Freedom owner gleefully told me "you go downwind". Then they just goosewing the rig, let the forward sail run by the lee, set the aft just high of square, and go like the clappers in a breeze. Not enough breeze? A mizzen staysail tacked down to the windward rail. And they do it as if on rails.

I wonder why some owners have to be so starry eyed about their boats. The one I have sailed looks like the lower photo ( 39ft). We were racing it Sunday before last and downwind in maybe 10kn true we could just keep up with a good 30ft bilge under spinnaker. We werent flying the coloured sail - just goosewinged. On all points of sail round the course we beat the 30 footer by 4 minutes in 90 and that was due to him taking a silly decision on the last leg when he was leading us by a minute or so.

Its an excellent cruising boat and built like the proverbial brick privy. But sailing performance isnt brilliant. Though thats a complete side issue to this thread which is about long keels.

 

[Robin]

So are you saying that a Jeanneau is on a par with a Vancouver for bluewater sailing?

Or that they are cheap?

My personal preference would certainly be the Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 that we owned yes, absolutely. I would also pick the 1985 Sunfizz 40 as owned by some friends too. Roberto of this parish has a Sun Legende 41 (the next hull number to ours I believe) and has sailed his far and wide, from Lorient to Brazil I believe he is now. I would also add that we bought ours after searching far and wide over two years for something to replace our then Westerly 33 Ketch when we rejected countless boats including One Halberg Rassy, four Westerly Oceanlords, two Westerly Corsairs, various Moodys around 40/42ft and three Starlight 39s, none of which were in good enough condition yet all of which were much more expensive. Our budget at the time was £110,000 and yet we found a much better boat for nearly £50,000 less once we overcame our then prejudice against 'French' boats. I just wish I had done that years earlier.

Sorry if it offends Vancouver owners but I find them cramped below, have an uncomfortable cockpit, the side decks are too narrow and they are too slow.

When we moved up from our W33 we decided we wanted something more than just a few extra inches here and there below for handing over three times the money and that something was to push up our passage plan speeds and achieve them under sail without need for engine assist. That fact alone meant a bigger boat because to get more average speed needs more waterline length, even before you look at the sailpower available for when the winds are light.

 

[Robin]

I know you bought a cabin cruiser after that Legende.

Yes absolutely true. We now have a very nice 47ft 'fast trawler' motor yacht which will be our new and only home very soon now as I just got my Green Card. If we were planning on world girdling we might have stayed with the SL41, but now at 67 and wanting to have a comfortable live aboard home for many more years to come then the motor option came out best by far. We will be based in the ICW at Daytona Beach Florida, with the whole east coast USA and ICW to cruise and the Keys, Bahamas and beyond as well. Motoring is a fact of life a lot of the time even for sailboats in the ICW and the skinny waters of the Bahamas Banks and Florida Keys means our 4ft draught is a definite plus. I have my sailing 'fix' covered by crewing for a neighbour in the marina who has a very nice 45 footer.

 

[Babylon]

Yes absolutely true. We now have a very nice 47ft 'fast trawler' motor yacht which will be our new and only home very soon now as I just got my Green Card. If we were planning on world girdling we might have stayed with the SL41, but now at 67 and wanting to have a comfortable live aboard home for many more years to come then the motor option came out best by far. We will be based in the ICW at Daytona Beach Florida, with the whole east coast USA and ICW to cruise and the Keys, Bahamas and beyond as well. Motoring is a fact of life a lot of the time even for sailboats in the ICW and the skinny waters of the Bahamas Banks and Florida Keys means our 4ft draught is a definite plus. I have my sailing 'fix' covered by crewing for a neighbour in the marina who has a very nice 45 footer.

Have a nice day.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Long keel allows me to do what I like doing - manoeuvering under sail - in my opinion it is best for this.

Now - do you "fly a biplane"? - is your mast stayed? a silly idea that technology hasnt moved on - to the cantilever. Do you need a stayed mast for a tight luff? are you doing it because your ancestors did?

Stayed masts are obsolete. Like...

I am delighted that you enjoy maneuvering under sail, but with respect there's a little bit of self delusion in saying that your long keel is BEST for this aspect. I am quite happy to acknowledge the excellent sailing characteristics of SOME long keeled boats, but they will never be faster than a good fin keel and a well sorted fin keeled boat is almost always easier to maneuver under sail.

 

[chrisedwards]

I am delighted that you enjoy maneuvering under sail, but with respect there's a little bit of self delusion in saying that your long keel is BEST for this aspect. I am quite happy to acknowledge the excellent sailing characteristics of SOME long keeled boats, but they will never be faster than a good fin keel and a well sorted fin keeled boat is almost always easier to maneuver under sail.

So I have delighted you and made you happy while being deluded.

Now, forget your emotions, and look carefully at what is being said. Not talking about speed here but what I like doing - not using the engine. My long keel is BEST for this for reasons discussed earlier where some have agreed with me (also deluded I suppose but thankfully adding to your delight). I just cannot do the close quarters manoeuvering I do now, in fin keeled boats. Talking about delight - I get it when my long keeled boat starts easing ahead, when at very slow speeds; before I would have stalled and crabbed. I am talking about very confined waters here.

You are the OP and you talk about suitabilty for blue water. Not being reliant on an engine surely should be a consideration.

 

[john_morris_uk]

So I have delighted you and made you happy while being deluded.

Now, forget your emotions, and look carefully at what is being said. Not talking about speed here but what I like doing - not using the engine. My long keel is BEST for this for reasons discussed earlier where some have agreed with me (also deluded I suppose but thankfully adding to your delight). I just cannot do the close quarters manoeuvering I do now, in fin keeled boats. Talking about delight - I get it when my long keeled boat starts easing ahead, when at very slow speeds; before I would have stalled and crabbed. I am talking about very confined waters here.

You are the OP and you talk about suitabilty for blue water. Not being reliant on an engine surely should be a consideration.

I am well aware that some fin keeled boats stall their keels at slow speed, but some don't and if we have a little match race (which relies on lots of sailing maneuvering and not just boat speed) with one of us in a Contessa 32 and one of us in a long keeled boat of a similar length then I know that almost whoever is sailing the Contessa is going run circles round the long keeled boat. My original post was to try and get people to discuss why a certain sub group of ocean sailors are quite so set in their ways, when some fin keeled boats display all the good characteristics of long keel with the added benefits of sailing faster and better.

As I have said before, don't use the bad manners of some lightweight fun keeled caravans to justify a long keel. You need to justify it against a Malo or a Halberg or a Swan or a Nicholson etc etc.

I do try to forget my emotions and I will freely admit that I loved the long keeled boats I have sailed and owned. I could also see their faults, and for you to suggest that close quarters under sail is easier in a long keel - well the politest thing for us is to agree to differ.

 

[chrisedwards]

I am well aware that some fin keeled boats stall their keels at slow speed, but some don't and if we have a little match race (which relies on lots of sailing maneuvering and not just boat speed) with one of us in a Contessa 32 and one of us in a long keeled boat of a similar length then I know that almost whoever is sailing the Contessa is going run circles round the long keeled boat. My original post was to try and get people to discuss why a certain sub group of ocean sailors are quite so set in their ways, when some fin keeled boats display all the good characteristics of long keel with the added benefits of sailing faster and better.

As I have said before, don't use the bad manners of some lightweight fun keeled caravans to justify a long keel. You need to justify it against a Malo or a Halberg or a Swan or a Nicholson etc etc.

I do try to forget my emotions and I will freely admit that I loved the long keeled boats I have sailed and owned. I could also see their faults, and for you to suggest that close quarters under sail is easier in a long keel - well the politest thing for us is to agree to differ.

Yes -of course we can agree to differ - thats what the forums all about. But please read what is being said - I'm talking about close quarters, intricate manoeuvering - nothing like your "match racing" - here my long keeler will "run circles" around the types you claim are better - the science is very crude - lateral resistance is greater - and this is important at slow speeds. We all like to do different things with out boats so I,m only considering only this aspect of long keels - they are best for me and your argument that "some fin keeled boats display all the good characteristics of long keel...." has a flaw.

 

[ksutton]

Your post has attracted many different views and comments, some truths, some untruths have been openly aired. Overwhelmingly it seems to point to the fact that fin keeled yachts do whats expected of them by their owners and likewise long keeled yachts do whats expected of them by their owners.

Your post proved again that most of us feel very passionate if not emotional about our yachts, despite there being probably equal and glaring negatives and positives of both types.

So the moral could be: enjoy your passion while you can, it cannot last forever.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Yes -of course we can agree to differ - thats what the forums all about. But please read what is being said - I'm talking about close quarters, intricate manoeuvering - nothing like your "match racing" - here my long keeler will "run circles" around the types you claim are better - the science is very crude - lateral resistance is greater - and this is important at slow speeds. We all like to do different things with out boats so I,m only considering only this aspect of long keels - they are best for me and your argument that "some fin keeled boats display all the good characteristics of long keel...." has a flaw.

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but we will not agree. The boat that is hot at close quarters agile maneuvering is also going to be better at the intricate close quarters maneuvering you allude to.

And I really don't see a flaw in my premise as stated.

I wonder whether one of the reasons people become attached to their long keeled boats is that such boats are sometimes older and therefore cheaper? But there are plenty of non radical fin keeled boats (like my friends Exacilbar) that are very competent ocean sailors at a very reasonable price. Perhaps I have talked myself out of that discussion...

 

[chrisedwards]

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but we will not agree. The boat that is hot at close quarters agile maneuvering is also going to be better at the intricate close quarters maneuvering you allude to.

And I really don't see a flaw in my premise as stated.

I wonder whether one of the reasons people become attached to their long keeled boats is that such boats are sometimes older and therefore cheaper? But there are plenty of non radical fin keeled boats (like my friends Exacilbar) that are very competent ocean sailors at a very reasonable price. Perhaps I have talked myself out of that discussion...

You dont see the flaw because you have missed out the crucual word - slow - your so called "hot" boat falls apart when its going slow (for reasons clearly discussed earlier) and intricate manoeuvering is done at slow speeds. It is precisely in this situation- where as much lateral resistance as possible is important - that my longkeeler is better - and this is important for my type of sailing. Other people play different games with their boats and thats fine.

Now - you are the OP and you question a longkeelers suitability for blue water - not being reliant on an engine should surely be a consideration?

 

[john_morris_uk]

You dont see the flaw because you have missed out the crucual word - slow - your so called "hot" boat falls apart when its going slow (for reasons clearly discussed earlier) and intricate manoeuvering is done at slow speeds. It is precisely in this situation- where as much lateral resistance as possible is important - that my longkeeler is better - and this is important for my type of sailing. Other people play different games with their boats and thats fine.

Now - you are the OP and you question a longkeelers suitability for blue water - not being reliant on an engine should surely be a consideration?

You seem to have ignored all the times I have tried to argue that NOT ALL fin keeled boats stall out at slow speeds.

I am not questioning a long keeled boats suitability for blue water at all. I am questioning the sub group of long distance sailors who put long keel high on their list of priorities. It's unnecessary but sometimes the boat you can afford or is available is the one you get...

 

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Robin
Yes absolutely true. We now have a very nice 47ft 'fast trawler' motor yacht which will be our new and only home very soon now as I just got my Green Card. If we were planning on world girdling we might have stayed with the SL41, but now at 67 and wanting to have a comfortable live aboard home for many more years to come then the motor option came out best by far. We will be based in the ICW at Daytona Beach Florida, with the whole east coast USA and ICW to cruise and the Keys, Bahamas and beyond as well. Motoring is a fact of life a lot of the time even for sailboats in the ICW and the skinny waters of the Bahamas Banks and Florida Keys means our 4ft draught is a definite plus. I have my sailing 'fix' covered by crewing for a neighbour in the marina who has a very nice 45 footer.

Have a nice day.

Well thank you very much kind Sir and y'all have a nice day too.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I am well aware that some fin keeled boats stall their keels at slow speed, but some don't and if we have a little match race (which relies on lots of sailing maneuvering and not just boat speed) with one of us in a Contessa 32 and one of us in a long keeled boat of a similar length then I know that almost whoever is sailing the Contessa is going run circles round the long keeled boat. My original post was to try and get people to discuss why a certain sub group of ocean sailors are quite so set in their ways, when some fin keeled boats display all the good characteristics of long keel with the added benefits of sailing faster and better.

Funny you should mention the Co32 as a paragon of manoeuvrability. The only racing collision I've been involved in was with a Co32. Upwind and downtide in very light airs past Cowes Green during a Cowes week. Co32 coming out on port, us on stbd. He caught us, bow to cockpit and took some splinters of gelcoat off his bow on our primary winch. Profuse apologies. "Sorry, I've had the tiller over for ages, but she just wouldn't come round."