What's the fascination with long keels?

[Bosun Higgs]

because it just "looks the business" to my inexpert eye.

You've said it all in that phrase.

Classic car guys like the old vehicles and why not. But they dont try to convince themselves that they are better or even as good as the results of modern design and decades of progress. Even you are accepting that. But for some reason, a proportion of leisure sailors do deceive themselves with a sentimental view of nautical old bangers. Too much reading of Slocum etc in formative years.

When a long keeler wins the Americas cup or the Volvo Ocean race I will pay attention. Meantime give me a modern design any day.

 

[westernman]

You've said it all in that phrase.

Classic car guys like the old vehicles and why not. But they dont try to convince themselves that they are better or even as good as the results of modern design and decades of progress. Even you are accepting that. But for some reason, a proportion of leisure sailors do deceive themselves with a sentimental view of nautical old bangers. Too much reading of Slocum etc in formative years.

When a long keeler wins the Americas cup or the Volvo Ocean race I will pay attention. Meantime give me a modern design any day.

But the boats that win those races are as similar to the boats most of us sail in the same way as the car which wins the Formula 1 is similar to the car we use to drop the kids off at school.

Now if you compare a pilot cutter replica like mine to your average bendy toy of a similar size, then things are much much closer than you might expect. In most conditions I will be faster - I will usually have a lot more canvas up than he has.

Where he will win is dead downwind in lightish conditions when he might set a massive great spinnaker. Up wind, if he has your usual furling genoa and in mast furling main, I will have the edge too. On a reach, I will win. I have a massive great reaching sail with more sail area than my house has floor area.
Pointing to windward will be about the same, but I will be faster through the water with no more leeway. Of course if he has a new set of racing sails, he will point better than me.

Downwind in a F8 I will win. He will chicken out and hide in the nearest port, I will be having a great ride with mother in law preparing a 4 course lunch in the galley.

 

[ksutton]

You've said it all in that phrase.

Classic car guys like the old vehicles and why not. But they dont try to convince themselves that they are better or even as good as the results of modern design and decades of progress. Even you are accepting that. But for some reason, a proportion of leisure sailors do deceive themselves with a sentimental view of nautical old bangers. Too much reading of Slocum etc in formative years.

When a long keeler wins the Americas cup or the Volvo Ocean race I will pay attention. Meantime give me a modern design any day.

Most of the arguments in support of the merits and virtues of long keeled yachts dont go any where near the race performance argument!. In fact most cruising yachtsmen are exactly that and are frankly not interested in racing. In fact your suggestion that a long keeled boat would possibly be purchased with serious racing in mind is so far off the mark, it becomes a rather silly comment.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Even the blesséd St Thomas of Cunliffe has realised that he can no longer boss a pilot cutter with just himself and wife aboard. His latest boat, a more conventional bermudan cutter still has lot of underwater, though. Not sure whether Tom has the bow thruster shown on this drawing.

He should be ashamed of himself!

I read his article about the purchase, and his list of criteria.

A British built Rustler 42 would have been a much better option in my opinion. Despite being British that is now two boats in a row he has sourced overseas. Despicable.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Beautiful looking boats the Mason 44's but looking further I'm surprised that Tom feels he will have comfortable space for his height, especially with similar friends and family on board.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/category/type/Mason

 

[Tranona]

He should be ashamed of himself!

I read his article about the purchase, and his list of criteria.

A British built Rustler 42 would have been a much better option in my opinion. Despite being British that is now two boats in a row he has sourced overseas. Despicable.

I expect he could get two of his lovely Mason 44s for the price of one Rustler! Kind of focuses the mind!

He was lucky in finding one that had a new engine and genny, both EU compliant which made its postbuild RCD Assessment less painful.

 

[rotrax]

Most of the arguments in support of the merits and virtues of long keeled yachts dont go any where near the race performance argument!. In fact most cruising yachtsmen are exactly that and are frankly not interested in racing. In fact your suggestion that a long keeled boat would possibly be purchased with serious racing in mind is so far off the mark, it becomes a rather silly comment.

+1.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I expect he could get two of his lovely Mason 44s for the price of one Rustler! Kind of focuses the mind!

He was lucky in finding one that had a new engine and genny, both EU compliant which made its postbuild RCD Assessment less painful.

He can afford it. Have you seen his speaking rates?

The Mason was probably north of £200k imported.

Not that much more for this, with a little negotiation and much less hassle.

http://www.red-ensign.com/rustler-42#.T0vG__FYCSM

 

[Blueboatman]

I was out sailing in my longkeeler yesterday, along with a lot of others. V light winds at first but with cruising chute up was able to accelerate and harden in, delightful sailing. Then a good beat back with the boat just reeling in the distance and pointing nicely, the autopilot hardly engaging( monitor windvane paddle robs 0.2 knots off the speed).
And my point? Why were so many of the double spreader fin n skeggies motoring everywhere flat out. Maybe they are not quite so enjoyable to actually sail in what should be their perfect conditions...
Ditto when I sailed on the modern gaffcutter Morwenna one light airs weekend. We put everything up and even when the apparent wins became only the tidewind, she sailed on that, unaffected by the endless mobo wash slopping round the Solent. With a wee breeze she sailed past every modern boat out there and not actually racing.
I am delighted there are still so many longkeel afficionados posting and buying!

 

[Poignard]

You've said it all in that phrase.

Classic car guys like the old vehicles and why not. But they dont try to convince themselves that they are better or even as good as the results of modern design and decades of progress. Even you are accepting that. But for some reason, a proportion of leisure sailors do deceive themselves with a sentimental view of nautical old bangers. Too much reading of Slocum etc in formative years.

When a long keeler wins the Americas cup or the Volvo Ocean race I will pay attention. Meantime give me a modern design any day.

Well of course you're right. One's 'formative years' are very influential.

I suppose that may be why I would rather go to bed with Marilyn Monroe than Twiggy.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

But the boats that win those races are as similar to the boats most of us sail in the same way as the car which wins the Formula 1 is similar to the car we use to drop the kids off at school.

I'll leave alone your other comments - they are opinions not facts, and opinions I dont agree with. But I think the above comment is a bit off the mark.

I'm not sure that I would call an F1 car a car - its about as related to an everday car as a windsurfer is to your pilot cutter. Less so if anything.

A much better comparison is between a sports bike like an R1 and a touring bike, or between a sports car like a Radical and my Lotus. They are reasonably similar, certainly much closer than they are to the classics. The modern consumer motorbike or proper sports car has inherited quite a lot of the technology and characteristics of the racing version.

But most modern production yachts have benefited little from the technology developed for racing yachts in part because of the conservatism of the buying public. Some years ago there was briefly a flurry of interest in ULDBs ( remember the Sadler Barracuda?) but that died. Where are the production yachts with unstayed carbon masts or wing masts or high strength low weight hulls? None of these would prevent the use of the boat as a cruising caravan - they would just make it sail better.

But boats are toys and many of the men buying them still have a romantic attachment to the old days when sailors had fingers like marlin spikes, the rum ration wasnt diluted, the navy didnt have women on board and men like them wouldnt be catching the 0730 from Esher but would be rounding the Horn with a cargo of spices. Etc Etc. Or at least thats my theory why we yotties are so conservative.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Well of course you're right. One's 'formative years' are very influential.

I suppose that may be why I would rather go to bed with Marilyn Monroe than Twiggy.

Love it !

But. Personally, I still go for those buxom Hammer Film girls !

Full bottom, plenty of top hamper with a cleverage my long keeler could sail through .

 

[RobbieW]

But. Personally, I still go for those buxom Hammer Film girls !

As I recall, the bite is worse than the bark

[afterthought] perhaps that should have been barque [/afterthought]

[2nd afterthought] and bight [/2nd afterthought]

 

[Babylon]

Others may well see it differently- surely that is the beauty of choice. We dont run down AWB's and we dont ram down others throats the advantages of our boat over theirs. We love her and thats OK. The view of others is of supreme indifference to us because we are sailing our dream boat.

This sums it up for me.

Why are affectionados of modern fin-keel cruising yachts so fascinated with discussing what's wrong, inferior or outdated about long-keelers?

Maybe there's some subsconscious sense of doubt - or betrayal of their earliest affections?

 

[Poignard]

But most modern production yachts have benefited little from the technology developed for racing yachts in part because of the conservatism of the buying public. Some years ago there was briefly a flurry of interest in ULDBs ( remember the Sadler Barracuda?) but that died. Where are the production yachts with unstayed carbon masts or wing masts or high strength low weight hulls? None of these would prevent the use of the boat as a cruising caravan - they would just make it sail better.

.

But don't forget the cost of such cutting edge technology. Not just to the man buying the yacht but also to the reputation (and balance sheet) of the builder if it goes horribly wrong; as new technology has a nasty habit of doing.

Anyway, on those few occasions when we do raft up next to a boat with an unstayed mast, my Old Guvnor always reacts badly to me telling her not to pull on its guard wires when crossing its deck, and wants to know what-the-hell she is supposed to get hold of when there are no shrouds! And, with inescapable female logic, asks why anyone in their right mind would want to buy a boat that you can't climb aboard!

 

[rotrax]

I'll leave alone your other comments - they are opinions not facts, and opinions I dont agree with. But I think the above comment is a bit off the mark.

I'm not sure that I would call an F1 car a car - its about as related to an everday car as a windsurfer is to your pilot cutter. Less so if anything.

A much better comparison is between a sports bike like an R1 and a touring bike, or between a sports car like a Radical and my Lotus. They are reasonably similar, certainly much closer than they are to the classics. The modern consumer motorbike or proper sports car has inherited quite a lot of the technology and characteristics of the racing version.

But most modern production yachts have benefited little from the technology developed for racing yachts in part because of the conservatism of the buying public. Some years ago there was briefly a flurry of interest in ULDBs ( remember the Sadler Barracuda?) but that died. Where are the production yachts with unstayed carbon masts or wing masts or high strength low weight hulls? None of these would prevent the use of the boat as a cruising caravan - they would just make it sail better.

But boats are toys and many of the men buying them still have a romantic attachment to the old days when sailors had fingers like marlin spikes, the rum ration wasnt diluted, the navy didnt have women on board and men like them wouldnt be catching the 0730 from Esher but would be rounding the Horn with a cargo of spices. Etc Etc. Or at least thats my theory why we yotties are so conservative.

As you have bought the Motorcycling analogy up I am sure the difference between a sports bike of any make and a Harley is more like the difference between a fin keel lightweight and a long keel heavyweight. I have some considerable experience of both types of motorcycle. It is possible to use either for the others job, but the experience will not be good. If, as I have done, I wished to cruise along the freeways of the USA or the motorways of Europe I would not use a sports bike. Unless you travel at high speed the weight on your wrists is a definate minus point. At high speed the wind pressure on your body and helmet take the weight a bit and its not so bad. The type of machine I would choose is a retro or a cruiser. As a European I would prefer a reto. The colonial cousins love their harleys. Both will do a good job and the ride should be comfortable.I am not talking a ride around the block but 500 mile days. Take a retro or cruiser to the backroads where the sports bike exells and you find your arms pump up, the footrests and exhaust scrapes and the brakes and tyres are not up to it. Just like the boats, its horses for courses. You cannot compare a lightweight carbon fibre leading edge race yacht with what most of us on this forum wobble around in. Some laminate genoas are good for 40 tacks and thats it. Leading edge boats are in the same league as F1 cars, designed to win the race and back for an extensive rebuild or bout of maintenance, all costing vast sums of money. The nice thing about yacht racing is that you can prepare a pretty standard boat and race it with the high tech wonders and due to the handicap system even have a ghost of a chance of being a giant killer. A freind has been on a top race boat as crew. Earplugs were required below because of the noise. My heavy old tub is not like that- its quite civilised.

 

[Conachair]

Yes. Annabel-J is in steel.

More info here:-
http://www.annabel-j.co.uk/

Mine is in wood/epoxy which is a pretty good compromise - no leaks, substantially reduced maintenance but still basically wood. Hence warm inside etc.

Beautiful. Do you have to take a course in providing fine food and wine when getting a boat like that? Cos in any anchorage that would have to be *the* party boat.

 

[westernman]

Beautiful. Do you have to take a course in providing fine food and wine when getting a boat like that? Cos in any anchorage that would have to be *the* party boat.

No. Mother in law takes care of that.

 

[Tranona]

He can afford it. Have you seen his speaking rates?

The Mason was probably north of £200k imported.

Not that much more for this, with a little negotiation and much less hassle.

http://www.red-ensign.com/rustler-42#.T0vG__FYCSM

About 10 listed on Yachtworld priced from less than £110k to £177k, but mostly in £120-150k range. So allowing up to £20k for shipping, RCD etc plus VAT well less than £200k. substantially less than the Rustler - and both prices are based on asking prices. Agree about the hassle, but as you know from the article one of Tom's criteria was low freeboard - which he gets with his final choice. And he did get a lot of new kit including the engine and genny. Pity the hassle and tax bit rules out many US purchases as in this style of boat there is a lot of choice there.

 

[Simondjuk]

I think that there are more deeply entrenched viewpoints relating to boats than perhaps any other subject.

Take for example the well worn idea that Bavaria keels fall off left right and centre. Do they really? Of course not. One specific and very low-volume model, the Match, had an issue. The rest are all fine. Look at the thousands of charter and school Bavs out there being sailed day in day out, in all weathers, probably being grounded more in a year than most boats are in a lifetime and all clocking up huge mileages without issues.

Then there's the sterngear fouling issue. Again, look at the mileages covered by the boats mentioned above. They're not spending all the time adrift with fouled props and rudders are they?

The notion that most flat bottomed, fin keeled boats slam and will not sail themselves? I've sailed lots of different fin and spade boats and found that nearly all can be made to sail themselves if you trim properly. As for slamming, they don't come much more 'tea tray' bottomed than my little Evolution, but she seldom if ever slams. Admittedly, the first few times she launched herself of the back of a steep wave, I screwed my face up in expectation of the shuddering thump to follow, but it just didn't happen. If the hull is the right shape, and many are, slamming needn't be an issue.

Even a boat that was originally designed to fish under motor can be made into a class winning sailing boat. If you asked for an opinion on it though, the majority would tell you it'd never work and all be wrong because of this thing, that thing, or the other thing, depending on their personal prejudices.