What Is A Blade (Sail, Not Knife)?

[Deleted member 36384]

Okay doaky I am showing my sailing gap years here. When I last raced, mid to late 80s, then again mid 90s, the Genoa was still in use. I also cruised a lot and we used a working jib.

A jib, I have always understood never came aft of the mast and clew was cut high up the leach. The No3 Genoa came to the mast but the foot was cut more or less parallel to the deck. Thus the main differentiation between a jib and a Genoa was the foot angle relevant to the tack.

I have no idea what a blade is, except it looks like a 100% Genoa? Is it something to do with the cut of the sail, or is it just a new name for a 100% Genoa?

I am starting to plan for the replacement of my furling Genoa; I am also cutter rigged. Optimisation of my sail plan is a question for another day.

 

[sailorman]

Full hoist luff with a short non overlapping foot.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Woteesez plus the clew is sometimes a foot or two off the deck to stop it stopping water in heavier going.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Okay then, sounds like what used to be called a No3 Genny, so I am left wondering where the name "Blade" came from. I have noticed it associated with "jib" i.e. a blade jib.

 

[Keen_Ed]

Never underestimate the need for racing sailors to invent new names for things to make what they do seem more manly and shrouded in mystery to the outside world. See kiwi drops etc

 

[sailorman]

Okay then, sounds like what used to be called a No3 Genny, so I am left wondering where the name "Blade" came from. I have noticed it associated with "jib" i.e. a blade jib.

a No 3 would not be full hoist & would also be say,130% overlap

 

[Deleted member 36384]

a No 3 would not be full hoist & would also be say,130% overlap

My recollection of the No3 is wrong then. So a Blade is a full hoist luff, with a foot cut up to clear the guard rails (low clew) and is technically a jib as there is no overlap (which would explain why I have read the term blade jib). I guess it needs a track that goes much further forward than normal (for a cruising boat) to sheet correctly and well inboard of the gunwale.

Thanks for the explanations.

BlowingOldBoots

 

[sailorman]

My recollection of the No3 is wrong then. So a Blade is a full hoist luff, with a foot cut up to clear the guard rails (low clew) and is technically a jib as there is no overlap (which would explain why I have read the term blade jib). I guess it needs a track that goes much further forward than normal (for a cruising boat) to sheet correctly and well inboard of the gunwale.

Thanks for the explanations.

BlowingOldBoots

we have a blade + very long tracks but the sheeting angle is very critical due the the long luff & short foot

 

[Quandary]

a No 3 would not be full hoist & would also be say,130% overlap

On three of the boats I have owned the No. 1 genny was 140%, the No. 2 was 125%, and the No 3 was 105%, on our Sigma 33 the No 3 was incorporated into the No 2 by a couple of extra cringles, the 'working jib' was a taller hoist but high clew with zero overlap. Fractional No 1 is rarely 150 %. On my current boat the sailmaker (Chris Owen, highly recommended) made me a 'blade' to supplement the 140% No 1 which he adjudged too big; as far as I am concerned it is a jib but with 3 vertical battens, 105%; but I reckon sailmakers will always need to have new names to justify what you pay them.
Handy sail for beating (or reaching) in a blow or even medium winds but the big one is much more powerful once the wind goes aft.

The battens make a considerable difference to the set of the sail

 

[sailorman]

On three of the boats I have owned the No. 1 genny was 140%, the No. 2 was 125%, and the No 3 was 105%, on our Sigma 33 the No 3 was incorporated into the No 2 by a couple of extra cringles, the 'working jib' was a taller hoist but high clew with zero overlap. Fractional No 1 is rarely 150 %. On my current boat the sailmaker (Chris Owen, highly recommended) made me a 'blade' to supplement the 140% No 1 which he adjudged too big; as far as I am concerned it is a jib but with 3 vertical battens, 105%; but I reckon sailmakers will always need to have new names to justify what you pay them.
Handy sail for beating (or reaching) in a blow or even medium winds but the big one is much more powerful once the wind goes aft.

it is an "up-wind" sail

 

[Quandary]

it is an "up-wind" sail

No, it is intended to be general purpose but I do not carry a spinnaker and the gennaker I have is very very big. My original sails came from North Finland but the nearest other Finngulf 33 to here had an Owen Sails wardrobe and raced very successfully without a No 1. I tend to use just the one headsail all day so the choice between my two roller headsails is made in the morning. When I race whitesail at WHYW I have to use the one head sail throughout the event or take a penalty, nowadays I would use the small one. Sawdoc will remember why!!
I hardly had the big one out of the bag last year.

 

[sailorman]

No, it is intended to be general purpose but I do not carry a spinnaker and the gennaker I have is very very big. My original sails came from North Finland but the nearest other Finngulf 33 to here had an Owen Sails wardrobe and raced very successfully without a No 1. I tend to use just the one headsail all day so the choice between my two roller headsails is made in the morning. When I race whitesail at WHYW I have to use the one head sail throughout the event or take a penalty, nowadays I would use the small one. Sawdoc will remember why!!
I hardly had the big one out of the bag last year.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136140

Read #2

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The reason for me seeking clarification (apart from ignorance) is based on observations from various folks that a blade arrangement is faster than the traditional Genoa approach, which Quandary eludes to, regarding the lack of a No 1.

This is a subject I shall be exploring later as stated in my OP.

 

[Quandary]

I am having my knowledge questioned here but I can only advise on the basis of my own experience but I have spent a lot more on sails than I have on cars in my lifetime. I learnt a lot of it from John McWilliam and his family but I have similar respect for Chris Owen nowadays. Never forgo a conversation with a sailmaker, even better in the bar if you have just beaten them.
In our Northern parts a No 1 is usually 140% on a fractional rig, though the No.1 on a Sigma 38 OOD is 135% no matter where it is. This is because of the large powerful main on these boats. Recently the tendency has been to use shorter overlap headsails and after struggling with 150% on a tippy Trapper 300 (masthead) for seven years, I welcome that.
Our Finngulf is typical of modern fast cruisers, 7/8, except that being from the Baltic the mast is keel stepped and the rig is very high aspect but the full length battened main is the dominant driving sail. We have through deck Furlex with twin track foil which allows full hoist roll up sails. I have never had to sail with a part rolled headsail and dislike the idea, I am much happier to put the first slab reef in the main.
To get back to the OPs question, what distinguishes our blade is that it is full hoist from the deck but only just comes back to the shrouds. The shape is maintained for the full height of the very tall narrow sail by the battens which I regard as essential for this type of sail. It also needs long genny traveller tracks and ours, though long, are not much more than adequate. Because of the very narrow tapered hull shape our two long track are adequately narrow at the front, fatter boats might benefit from dedicated inboard tracks. I adjust the genny cars as much and as often, if not more with the blade than I do with the No.1. The boat is out of the water now otherwise I could offer a demonstration.
For a boat with our type of rig I would not be without it, well worth the money. It suits our urge to cruise quickly with minimum physical effort but with plenty to keep the mind active, but I would enjoy racing with it too if I had the chance. I made a mistake in going against Chris's advice and selecting Dacron just because cruising two up nearly all the time I did not want too look pretentious and I just like white sails, laminate would perform better over time and you do put an awful lot of tension on the sheets to flatten it.

 

[JimC]

a jib but with 3 vertical battens... The battens make a considerable difference to the set of the sail

My boat has the standard Hunter self-tacking jib which is like a blade jib, it sets well on the wind but as the wind moves aft and the sheet is eased the upper leach falls away to leeward and the shape becomes poor. I'm interested to hear of these vertical battens and wonder if they would help my situation. Are they compatible with roller furling? I guess for that they would have to be slender and run parallel to the forestay?

 

[Roberto]

Isn't a "blade" what was (and is) called a Solent Jib ?

About 100% LP, full length hoist, leech more or less parallel to the mast..

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Isn't a "blade" what was (and is) called a Solent Jib ?

About 100% LP, full length hoist, leech more or less parallel to the mast..

It is from what I gather from one of the linked threads in post 12, so far: Solent Jib, Blade 3 and just Blade. There is even a claim that it is just a No 3 with a taller luff.

I shall add the leech being parallel to the mast for the description of a blade. What a fascinating thread this is, so many ideas to improve the performance of my old girl.

 

[Quandary]

My boat has the standard Hunter self-tacking jib which is like a blade jib, it sets well on the wind but as the wind moves aft and the sheet is eased the upper leach falls away to leeward and the shape becomes poor. I'm interested to hear of these vertical battens and wonder if they would help my situation. Are they compatible with roller furling? I guess for that they would have to be slender and run parallel to the forestay?

Yes, they are referred to as vertical but they are aligned to roll up with the sail: I suspect your sail my have a more hollow leech as the battens allow more fullness in the cut. It would not be hard to try one on it using some sail repair tape, if it worked you could make more permanent pockets. Even one batten might make a difference.
Mine are each about 1.5m. long and spaced evenly from near the top to a bit below half height, they are simple hollow round plastic battens, very light, about 9mm. dia. and very stiff with no taper. The ends are just finished with a folded over square of sailcloth stapled to the fibre reinforced tube. There is nothing too high tech about them compared to mainsail battens except the strength and lightness. All sailmakers are using them now so they should not be hard to find.
Worth a try?

 

[dunedin]

My boat has the standard Hunter self-tacking jib which is like a blade jib, it sets well on the wind but as the wind moves aft and the sheet is eased the upper leach falls away to leeward and the shape becomes poor. I'm interested to hear of these vertical battens and wonder if they would help my situation. Are they compatible with roller furling? I guess for that they would have to be slender and run parallel to the forestay?

Rather than changing the sail, try arranging a secondary rope to pull the line of the jib sheet outboard and downwards, to reduce the twist. Google "barber hauler" to get the idea - though often these are rigged to bring the angle of the sheeting inwards, they can be used just as easily inwards. Leave loose upwind, and pull in the relevant side downwind

 

[dunedin]

I have no idea what a blade is, except it looks like a 100% Genoa? Is it something to do with the cut of the sail, or is it just a new name for a 100% Genoa?

One of these .....

Called a blade because it is very tall and narrow. This one is kevlar and has three horizontal battens, the top one full size. As noted needs sheeting point very far forward and well inboard. Points very well but lacks power unless blowing 20+ knots on our boat