What does “tiller hard over to starboard” mean to you?

[William_H]

On my boat the helmsman makes his own decisions re collision avoidance. I or others might point out a danger.
The other point about this discussion of the order is that in many cases and depending on design of the boat tiller hard oveer will result in rudder stall and less actual turning power than tiller partially over. Rudder stall when rudder is near square (flat) to water flow, will result in slowing the boat with limited turning effect. Of course many boats have a rudder stop which will limit degree of tiller hard over but may small boats don't.
Any order given by a skipper must be unambiguous and given in terms the receiver will under stand. Regardless of standard terms. Any failure of receiver to understand correctly the order is a failure of the skipper.
I often think about that quaint English term " He did not suffer fools gladly" To my mind a complete damnation of that person. Especially in sailing and especially in teaching sailing you must suffer fools gladly. Not that the student (crew) is a fool just not understanding sailing terms.
ol'will

 

[thinwater]

As to the OP's question, it was perfectly clear. For example, "helm's alee" mean we are tacking." turning into the wind).

But I would just say "turn right" if that is what I mean. Or head up/bare off when that is more to the point.

 

[Refueler]

Having started rereading the Elbe No.5 thread linked above, Dom Buckley states in Post #8 (re the actual Titanic, not the film):

'No they weren't [opposite]. First Officer Murdoch gave the correct order, and Helmsman Hichens made the correct helm response. The change from "helm orders" to "wheel orders" came after the 1932 Merchant Shipping Act and was in no way influenced by the Titanic disaster, in which the helm arrangement played no part.'

No-one I see has implied Titanic had anything t do with Helm Orders change ... its just used as illustration of the old system.

As an Ex Merch Officer ... I was told during training that the Helm Orders based on Tiller were a carry over from Royal Naval ships to Merchant ... the change to Helm Orders based on Heading was via Merchant Shipping Acts - but RN had as well - but as it was not a 'public' item - is not as an Act. Interestingly - I cannot remember which way round - but the two regimes did not make the change at same time !! So I was told in College.

 

[Mister E]

Left hand down when steering with a wheel.

 

[Stemar]

I would like to think that, on my old boat with a tiller, if I have to give the order "Hard to starboard" the context would make it pretty clear to the helm Current boat has a wheel, so no possible ambiguity.

I also like to think that we'd never need hard to anything outside low speed manoeuvring, 'cos if we do, someone's screwed up (rounding buoys apart, but I don't race, so it would still be a screwup).

 

[Graham_Wright]

Always ask and expect the order to be repeated back.

 

[Poignard]

Years ago someone here (Kukri} was reminiscing about sailing with his father who, instead of issuing peremptory orders, would say :..

"We might improve the shining hour by putting a tack in, when you have a moment!"

I would have enjoyed sailing with someone like that.

 

[capnsensible]

As to the OP's question, it was perfectly clear. For example, "helm's alee" mean we are tacking." turning into the wind).

But I would just say "turn right" if that is what I mean. Or head up/bare off when that is more to the point.

Bare off??

 

[14K478]

Years ago someone here was reminiscing about sailing with his father who, instead of issuing peremptory orders, would say :..

"Do you think we might improve this shining hour by putting a tack in?"

I would have enjoyed sailing with someone like that.

It was me, and I - and my sister - very much did.

 

[veshengro]

" Bare off?? " Yep, next order is Hands to swim...

 

[14K478]

Bare off??

Bear away.

Looks like the Curse of the Spill Chequer, or more likely the curse of Predictive Text which will sneak in the word it thinks you ought to want without checking with you.

 

[Refueler]

Bear away.

Looks like the Curse of the Spill Chequer, or more likely the curse of Predictive Text which will sneak in the word it thinks you ought to want without checking with you.

US Spell checker ... Predictive Text ... UGH !!

I am sure that 'spill' was intentional !!

I have noticed that before - it was easy to choose English UK Spell Checker on Win ... but now not so easy .. so I've just left it ...

When I have to translate various of my Supers reports / messages - Chinese .. Arabic ... Turkish ... Japanese ... Spanish .... Portuguese .. Israeli (as examples) ... the option for English UK is not there anymore .. so I have to live with US English ...

 

[Poignard]

It was me, and I - and my sister - very much did.

You are Kukri, and I claim my ten-bob note!

 

[mattonthesea]

After many years of sailing with a tiller, and then a break of a few years, I was given the wheel on a yacht. Being a bear of little brain I found the boat sometimes moved in the opposite direction to what I expected. It took me a little while to realise that was when I was standing to the windward side of the wheel, looking forward, and had forgotten it wasn't a tiller!

 

[RunAgroundHard]

It is pretty obvious that it means tiller hard over to starboard and not rudder pointing to starboard or turn to starboard. I have heard the language used on both wheel (substitute wheel instead of tiller) and tillers on sail training vessels. Also heard helm to starboard (or port), 5, 10, 15 where the numbers represent the spokes on the wheel; usually followed by helm to midship. In all cases the helm person just has to follow instructions and is not concerned where the boat is going.

It is not a difficult concept to understand, just follow the instruction. However, I can understand the confusion if thinking about it out of context. On a deck, with a person on the wheel that can barely see above the binnacle, the first mate or master can issue helm orders and as long as the person responds, all will be well.

 

[fisherman]

I've had "Wind her in a spoke", and "Wind away" = stbd and port, 'in' is 'into' the gear being hauled stbd side. It all goes to rats and custard on a French boat, they haul to port for reasons we have never understood.

 

[B27]

So what is the point of helm up & helm down? My tiller does pivot up & down, but I only pivot it up to cross over between traveller & tiller, when tacking, or to give more room in the cockpit when berthed

Everybody I've ever raced with and most people I've been on a boat with would understand 'up' as meaning steer more to windward, in 99% of contexts.
If you might mean up-tide, up-river or up-to-a-bigger-number-on-the-compass, then it's best to be explicit.

If I was talking to a beginner who needed to be told how to move the stick, I would say 'tiller towards you' or 'tiller away from you' which is unambiguous. Provided you know where they are sat that is!

Even 'left hand down a bit' can be ambiguous when you're on an old-skool racing boat with a big wheel and not stood behind the wheel like you're driving a bus.

I've sailed with a whole load of varied people and it's amazing how some will misinterpret words.
We on here might think 'forwards' always means 'towards the pointy end', don't take it for granted!

 

[B27]

I was the person who used the phrase, and I used it in the specific context of maneuvering the boat under power in a confined space at low speed, which is what the discussion was about.. It wasn't a helm order, it was a description of what the helmsperson does with the tiller.

This is what I wrote:

I find my fin keel boat much more awkward than her predecessor which had a full keel, a tiny engine with an offset prop and a bowsprit. She could be relied on to do two things - to turn to port on a sixpence (shove tiller hard over to starboard, give several short bursts of full ahead) and put her stern into the wind if she was left in astern for any length of time and if there was enough wind.

This boat has eight feet between the prop and the skeg rudder and she is completely unpredictable, because there is no prop was left by the time it gets to the rudder, and the prop is too close to the CLR to act as a "sea anchor".

I find it very hard indeed to believe that FredRussell didn't know what I meant.

Still, I seem to have given a lot of people a lot of fun.

It makes complete sense, in the context.
Completely different from using the phrase while sailing a course or carrying out an ordinary tack.

 

[Poignard]

[...]

I've sailed with a whole load of varied people and it's amazing how some will misinterpret words.
[...]

Having subscribed to this, and other, forums it doesn't amaze me!

 

[capnsensible]

Everybody I've ever raced with and most people I've been on a boat with would understand 'up' as meaning steer more to windward, in 99% of contexts.
If you might mean up-tide, up-river or up-to-a-bigger-number-on-the-compass, then it's best to be explicit.

If I was talking to a beginner who needed to be told how to move the stick, I would say 'tiller towards you' or 'tiller away from you' which is unambiguous. Provided you know where they are sat that is!

Even 'left hand down a bit' can be ambiguous when you're on an old-skool racing boat with a big wheel and not stood behind the wheel like you're driving a bus.

I've sailed with a whole load of varied people and it's amazing how some will misinterpret words.
We on here might think 'forwards' always means 'towards the pointy end', don't take it for granted!

Gets even more fun with students whose first language isn't English....... Keeps you on the ball though!